I'm curious of your opinion

GreytNurse · Jan 27, 2002

:eek: I want to know at what point did this discusion go from a medical issue involving a child, to a religious banter?

You guys didn't read my comment......you CAN"T argue with this JW nut!!!!!

JW can not talk without covering it with misquoted, misguided scripture!

Like I said.......What about them Rams????????? :cool:

Peeps Mcarthur · Jan 27, 2002

Greyt,

I never knew until I did some research. Like I said we didn't have computers back when I was "slaying". I never knew the abyss could be that dark and that deep.

This thread has been a real eyeopener:eek: ...wow

And really, when it comes to treatment I likely won't be consulted but it's nice to know it's just the tip of the iceberg when dealing with these sorts of people.

live4today, RN · Jan 28, 2002

Hello everyone,

I came back to this post -- after not reading it for a while -- to see how the preemie baby was doing with the blood transfusion that was court ordered, etc., only to see that the Jehovah Witness controversy has taken over the board. :rolleyes:

Greytnurse,

I TOTALLY agree with you!

JW,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding your religious beliefs, as is everyone else. Can we MOVE ON now and get back to the little tyke who received a blood transfusion? Did the baby survive? Have you even bothered to ask since you started conversing with everyone about why Jehovah Witnesses believe as they do? I just wish we could get back to the topic at hand about the little preemie here. I really want to know how the little one is doing. Does anyone know?

Religion is a HOT and OVERDEBATED topic that certainly has a right to be discussed on a nursing forum, but could this particular HOT topic be moved to its own forum so we can get back to the topic at hand, PLEASE????? :eek:

______________________________________________

"The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER

KRVRN, BSN, RN · Jan 28, 2002

AMEN!

No one is going to change anyone elses' religious opinion.

JW-HLC · Jan 28, 2002

Hi Renee,

The original poster asked "What is your feeling? Should the courts/hospital intercede? Or do the parent's have the right to refuse blood in this case?"

As this issue normally only applies to those who are JW's, I responded as a JW who deals with these matters with some frequency, to put the JW point of view. I thought that it might be both interesting and beneficial for readers to hear it from "the horses mouth" so to speak.

I have tried to keep the discussion on matters relating to why JW's don't accept blood but some like to make a coconut shy of "the JW", hence the attacks on various aspects of our religious beliefs and it is perhaps natural to defend what you hold dear.

I too would like to know the outcome for the little one, but no one with that information has come forward.

Peeps Mcarthur · Jan 28, 2002

Reene,

"The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER

I thought I would use your signature to explain the length of this post.

JW,

I didn't mention your religion until you attacked my integrity. I would have preferred not to.

GreytNurse · Jan 28, 2002

......"Interesting and beneficial for readers to hear it from " the horses mouth" so to speak......: you also stated that you have TRIED to keep the discussion on matters relating to why JW don't accept blood.....well I think that your comment is not entirely true. You have actually done more 'yelling' and cramming down throats.

The 'attacks' have not been on your faith as a JW, the attacks have been on YOU personally since you were totally avoiding all of our questions and instead, you were 'preaching' from your homemade soapbox and displaying your 'religious' zealous. (please note that I'm not speaking of the JW faith here, just generally speaking).

Reene......Regarding your quote......"The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN"T being said".....actually that is a poor statement, since not all people 'hear' the same thing and that, my friend is how misunderstandings occur!!!

I know that this 'blood' issue has alot to do with religion, regarding the faith of these parents, but as I stated before, we as medical professionals, must take into account the child here, how is unable to speak for itself. How about some 'thoughts' regarding your own personal objectives of this. How would you react? If you shared this belief and it were your child, how would you react to the medical staff against you?? Just curious.

live4today, RN · Jan 28, 2002

"The most important thing in communication is to HEAR what ISN'T being said." -- PETER F. DRUCKER

*******************************

GREYTNURSE:

The above is a famous quote which is only ONE of many famous quotes I like to share from time to time. In my PERSONAL opinion, I -- and I did not intend it to be a favorite for others -- but I chose that famous quote out of my book of famous quotes to apply to this thread because it reminded me of my Nursing Issues Class in college that talked a lot about how nurses should offer a "listening ear" to their patients, all the while observing their "UNSPOKEN DIALOGUE" that often clues a nurse or doctor in on other things bothering the patient that the patient just isn't able to share with us as their caregivers.

Have you ever heard the song that says "IF A PICTURE PAINTS A THOUSAND WORDS THEN WHY CAN'T I PAINT YOU" ?

That song reminds me of Peter F. Drucker's quote, that's all. It says to me that what we are being told isn't all there is to the story, or what we see isn't all that's really being shown to us. We have to look deeper into things than just what's on the surface. You can choose to disagree with me, and that's perfectly OKAY, my friend.

No one has to like Peter F. Drucker's quote just because I do. I'm okay with that!

**********************************

Greytnurse:

You asked me about my own objectives regarding this situation with the baby who needed blood yet the parents refused.... I'm not sure if this was the post I posted my comment on, I think it was the original one...not sure. Anyway, in my original comments, I said that I agreed with the courts who court ordered for the baby to receive blood to try and save the little one's life. Any life measures that can be taken to save the life of a human being should be exercised in the health field without exception.

HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING: You asked that if I were of the JW faith and had a child who needed blood, how would I react to the medical staff against me?

Well, I can honestly say that I would not be a Jehovah Witness because its teachings are not those that I would believe in. BUT, hypothetically speaking, IF somehow I were a JW, I would be one of the JW who would NOT be opposed to receiving blood transfusions. There is no way that I would allow a child of mine to die over something that is NOT of God.

JW: Now, I know this will probably start another lecture from you, but JW -- this is my PERSONAL belief, okay. Please don't take offense to it. I am NOT attacking you here, JW, just that which is taught by the JW religion, nor do I take offense to your PERSONAL belief, JW, when it comes to whether or not you personally would receive a blood transfusion.

Just for the record, my personal religious belief is this: I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Virgin Birth. I accept Jesus as God's Only Begotten Son who came to earth to die for mankind's sins so that never again would we have to offer up a sacrificial lamb by the shedding of its blood because Jesus shed His own precious blood that was without sin for the sins of ALL mankind. I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, The One who makes it possible for me to partake in the salvation of mankind, EVEN THOUGH I am still living in a sinful body of flesh with a fleshly nature that will continue sinning IF I do not exercise discipline and self control in my life when making decisions. I accept that I am NEVER going to be PERFECT, but ONLY PERFECTED IN CHRIST as my Lord, my Shield, My Refuge, and My Savior. I am, and always will be as long as I breathe, "an art under construction" for the glory of Almighty GOD.

I hope this post clarifies and answers those questions that were presented to me. If not, please don't hesitate to ask me again. Keep in mind: THIS GAL AINT PERFECT BY NO MEANS!!!

Peeps Mcarthur · Jan 28, 2002

Greytnurse,

{QUOTE,Greytnurse}

"about some 'thoughts' regarding your own personal objectives of this. How would you react? If you shared this belief and it were your child, how would you react to the medical staff against you?? Just curious"

{end quote}

I will never actualy be in that predicament. I don't have children and won't ever have them. I actualy try to avoid them in my professional as well as personal life. I won't belong to an all controlling religion.

So, for what it's worth, if faced with this dilemma I think I would consider all the possibilities, including the fact that I might not be thinking straight. I would wonder why these professional , educated, caring people wouldn't just take the easy way out of the situation to apease my beliefs. Wouldn't my way be just as safe?

I would wonder if It's because they see grave danger and I don't, or that they don't want to see my point of veiw.

I would wonder about their own religiouse convictions and whether those are interfering with their decisions.

I would wonder if I'm really doing it for God, or if I was just so caught up in whether the church would approve or not that I wouldn't consider other viable options(Now that I have experience with)

No matter, I'm sure it would be difficult to not think that a good and rightiouse God, would understand and still love me if I felt weak and needed his forgiveness.(that I also have experience with)

No doubt, that's a God everyone can agree on.

RyanRN · Jan 29, 2002

http://www.ajwrb.org/basics/abstain.shtml

GreytNurse · Jan 29, 2002

Ryan......"greyt" web site...thanks!!!!!!!!!!!! I would think that will answer alot of questions......?????????Nawwww, we'll get some kind of response, I'm sure. :rolleyes:

Reene & Peeps...Thanks for the responses. I guess I feel about the same. I have 5 kids (all over 18) but regardless of what I believed, I would do all possible to save the life of my child! Reene, I share the same faith as you. I know that in order to express 'my' religious freedom, I must respect that of others, but for the life of me, I can't see how a parent, or someone who calls themselves parents, would allow a belief, regardless of how dedicated I was, to jeopardize the life of MY child!!!!?????

My mother's side is Jewish. Some don't eat pork, etc....some do. My greatgrandmother had seperate dishes & sides of the sink for meat and dairy......."don't you ever cross the two.....". As much as I loved my 'Nannie', I don't share her beliefs. I'm still part of that nationality, not the faith. Does God love me any less??????NO. God created for our enjoyment. He loves us that much!

I don't think......in-fact I KNOW, that God would not give us 'rules' to live by that would cause us to let a child, that He blessed us with, die.

Like I said, it is a very touchy subject, some will agree, some will not. I'm just courious about the opinions of fellow nurses.

Thanks again for your thoughts!!!!!!

JW-HLC · Jan 29, 2002

"JW: Now, I know this will probably start another lecture from you, but JW -- this is my PERSONAL belief, okay. Please don't take offense to it. I am NOT attacking you here, JW, just that which is taught by the JW religion, nor do I take offense to your PERSONAL belief, JW, when it comes to whether or not you personally would receive a blood transfusion."

Hi Renee,

I don't think I could take offence at you, you're not attacking me and I am certainly not going to lecture you. (Why is it that when a JW talks it's a "lecture" or "yelling" and "cramming" but when everyone else SHOUTS and swamps its just making a case?).

Renee, I am very glad that you have a faith, it is refreshing to meet people who do, this world is so full of those who don't give God a thought. We're perhaps not so afar apart as you would like to think (scary? :eek: ) - JW's aren't any less imperfect than anyone else, we are all frail humans tainted with sin. Like you we believe that without the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ we would have no hope. However we believe that obedience to God comes before all else and we believe that has always been the case with those who love Him, even when it has cost them something. We also believe that being imperfect humans we make mistakes and our loving God will forgive us if we are sorry, (wasn't that exactly what the ransom sacrifice was for?). We don't believe He's the sort of God who tortures people in hellfire but one who promises an everlasting future in a new earthly paradise for all who want to serve Him His way. We look at things from the point of view of the promised "everlasting future" rather than the short term view of the "here and now" and that's what most people can't understand.

We don't ask others to share our beliefs about blood if they don't want to and if any change their minds they are free to stop being a JW. Some have, and have published all sorts of views including lies - I guess the same applies to every religion, if you want to know what a believer believes, ask the believer not the ex-believer because he/she no longer believes.

We are very grateful to medics who try to work with us and we do what we can to give a lot back to the medical profession. Conflict with the profession is thankfully extremely rare and many agree with our stand (e.g. the video of Doctors from around the world recommending bloodless treatment, video extract).

Renee this is just a reply to your posting, I am not inviting further "doctrinal discussion" or "kick the JW" opportunities, if any wish me to defend my faith or discuss the scriptural basis for theirs they can do so via email or private postings, that way I guess others will not feel bothered (although I will happily "publicly" defend my faith on a dedicated forum if required).