ICU nurses- your thoughts on organ donation?

fab4fan · Aug 7, 2005

Exactly. The very idea that the feelings of the family of a potential donor are irrelevant is repugnant to me.

To me, this is one of the manifestations of what is wrong with medical care these days. We've gotten so caught up in the technology, in the "Gee whiz, looky what we can do now" mentality, that we've forgotten that there are real people behind all of this.

I'm not sure I understand why one person's tragedy trumps another's; why does someone's need for a kidney make it OK to get that kidney, by any means necessary, from a potential donor? I've had the misfortune of sitting in on some of those "donor talks"...here's a family, just trying to come to grips with finding out that someone they love is gone, and there are several people all in their face saying how they need to donate organs, now.

Sorry, I'm not buying this one. (And it still deeply ofends me to hear people say things like "I'm just praying we'll get that heart/kidney/liver, etc." To me, that's just wishing ill on someone else so you don't suffer.)

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 8, 2005

I simply can't judge harshly those wishing/praying for an organ donor to come through. Cause if it were my baby, my dh, or me, I would desperately want one. Do I want something bad to happen to someone else so I can live? Of course not---nor would most, I daresay. To me, at least, to judge that people praying for an organ are wishing tragedy on the next one, is at the very least, as unfair as you claim others are being , Fab4.

It's a very personal decision and crisis, for both sides of this sensitive issue. I believe with all my heart----It's not evil to pray that one's loved one or self might live, esp. if facing a premature loss of life that could be saved if an organ became available. It's NOT the same as wishing someone else to die. People die everyday, anyway.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Aug 8, 2005

i've been very impressed with my area's program:

gift of life donor program

the non-profit agency serving the eastern half of pennsylvania, southern new jersey and delaware, is responsible for recovering and distributing organs and tissues used in life-saving and life-enhancing transplants.

gift of life also attributes the continued growth in organ and tissue donations since 1994 to the rewriting of pennsylvania's organ donation laws.

the 1994 "routine referral" law (see glossary), pa act 102, required hospitals to routinely call the organ and tissue donor program that serves their region when patients die so that families can be advised of the decision made by their loved one regarding donation, or in the absence of a documented donation decision, to offer families the option of donation. this comprehensive law became the national standard in addressing organ and tissue donation, with similar laws passed in new jersey in 1995 and in delaware in 1998.

great info at their website including link re religious views

karen

fab4fan · Aug 8, 2005

I simply can't judge harshly those wishing/praying for an organ donor to come through. Cause if it were my baby, my dh, or me, I would desperately want one. Do I want something bad to happen to someone else so I can live? Of course not---nor would most, I daresay. To me, at least, to judge that people praying for an organ are wishing tragedy on the next one, is at the very least, as unfair as you claim others are being , Fab4.
It's a very personal decision and crisis, for both sides of this sensitive issue. I believe with all my heart----It's not evil to pray that one's loved one or self might live, esp. if facing a premature loss of life that could be saved if an organ became available. It's NOT the same as wishing someone else to die. People die everyday, anyway.

I'm sorry, Deb, but that's how it comes across to me. What else can it mean to pray that God gives someone an organ? We all know what has to happen for that organ to become available...something bad has to happen to someone else.

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 8, 2005

How about just acknowledging that we don't live in others' heads? Praying for a life-saving measure such as organ donation IS NOT the same thing as wishing another dead.

Like I said, it's a very private, personal decision for both families---the ones who lost a loved one and the ones facing a loss themselves, if lifesaving measures don't come through. What is so wrong with wanting my child or husband or myself to LIVE if there is a way?

Bad things happen to people EVERYDAY. People die EVERYday. We don't have to wish for it to happen; it will. No one likes for it to happen..... What is so wrong with helping another live after the tragic loss of someone, a loss that no one wished on them in the first place?

It's not the same thing to say I want to live, and say I want someone else to die. People die. Everyday. I don't elect or get to chose. I can only pray I am not in either situation---needing an organ or needing to decide to donate one. I will NOT judge another for wanting to live, however, esp if he/she has EVERYthing to live for.

fab4fan · Aug 8, 2005

I guess I am not explaining how I feel clearly, so I am opting out of this discussion.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Aug 8, 2005

on october 1, 1994 highway robbers shot nicholas green, a boy from northern california, as he and his family drove through southern italy on holiday. he died two days later. his parents donated his organs which was extremely rare event in italy. his parents wish was that someone else might live---seven persons received donated organs. the story got huge tv and newspaper coverage.

in the first few days after his death, the number of people signing organ donor cards in italy quadrupled. donations there last year were almost triple the rate they were in the year before he died.

the nicholas green foundation - an article from readers digest

if never offered the chance to donate, then the loss of an organ is a sure thing. asking to consider donation should be just that: a request with yes or no. families have a right to choose. but by denying them a chance to choose

we are making the decision for them, imho.

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 8, 2005

I guess I am not explaining how I feel clearly, so I am opting out of this discussion.

Certainly that is your option. You are rather articulate, however, and I feel I understand what you are saying. I just happen to disagree.

mattsmom81 · Aug 8, 2005

Certainly that is your option. You are rather articulate, however, and I feel I understand what you are saying. I just happen to disagree.

Sorry Deb but I agree with Fab4fan. those who wish for organs at another's expense? Well to me it is like 'coveting'. Enough said. :stone

SmilingBluEyes · Aug 8, 2005

Sorry Deb but I agree with Fab4fan. those who wish for organs at another's expense? Well to me it is like 'coveting'. Enough said. :stone

No, sorry, mattsmom, it is not "coveting" to me. It's wishing to live when there is a chance. It's not the same thing. I stand by my original words. I am not coveting if I want a lifesaving treatment for my loved ones or self, in the event I were to die young and prematurely without such treatment.

What if your child or grandchild were i, say, chronic renal failure? Dialysis sure, it works for a while, but how long?

You cannot donate, nor can anyone else suitable, in your family/friend circle, for whatever reason. So you pray for the answer: a suitable healthy kidney. You do not pray specifically for someone to die. You pray that IF someone is to die, that person is a match. You know someone will die. They do every day---tragically---in car wrecks, accidents, drownings, etc. That does not make you happy, nor a monster to hope for a miracle.

You are gonna tell me, you just as soon see your baby dead as pray for a miracle? I can scarcely believe it.

That is not coveting.....it's wanting the answer to come through so your young child does not die.

Do you think, in Karen's case in Italy, that receiving family wanted the other child to DIE? No,they just wanted theirs to LIVE. Someone already died----what was wrong with wanting theirs to live? And coveting---a Biblical term I believe....are you saying I am sinning, hoping for a lifesaving measure such as transplant? I just wonder where we are going here....

Anyhow, glad to have your reply. I am sorry we cannot agree on this topic. But that is ok........you have your right to your opinion, as I mine. As long as we refrain from getting nasty, it's all good. I respect your taking the time to tell me how you feel! :)

papawjohn · Aug 8, 2005

Hey Y'all

An ol' redneck gets to show off his furrin language. Schadenfreund (I am prob'ly going to be really embarassed here 'cause someone will correct my spelling 8>) means 'taking pleasure in someone else's misfortune'. Generally thought to be a bad thing unless the unfortunate other person is Osama bin Laden, right?

I have friends whose lives are full and rich because they got organ transplants from cadavers. (BTW--there ARE volunteer donors who give up kidneys for family members and even strangers. That's of course a different kettle of fish.)

If I was on dialysis, would I be thinking wistfully of all the healthy kidneys laying in funeral homes and morgues? Well, DUH!!! So would we all.

But there is this transplantation process that we have now-a-days that would tempt me to look at every motorcyclist who refuses to wear a helmit and think "I want YOUR kidney, Jack". The system is set up that way!!

BAAAAD spiritual place to put us. Tempts us toward one of those 7 deadly ones.

Two thoughts. The system sucks (how long did it take Mickey Mantel to get a donor liver? Weeks. How long did my friend David wait for his? Years.) We need a new system.

Second. We need to really hurry along the day when STEM-CELL and DNA technology make it possible for a perfect copy of MY kidney to be grown in a pig in a lab somewhere. That means voting left and writing your congressman and senators.

Yer Leftist Papaw John

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 8, 2005

Exactly. The very idea that the feelings of the family of a potential donor are irrelevant is repugnant to me.
To me, this is one of the manifestations of what is wrong with medical care these days. We've gotten so caught up in the technology, in the "Gee whiz, looky what we can do now" mentality, that we've forgotten that there are real people behind all of this.

This is also in response to matt'smom's quote just above this one:

I'm not beating you guys up or being morally superior. And I didn't say that family feelings don't matter. What I said is that I think part of the reason why the process can be inferred as a 'vulture hunt' with rude people browbeating grieving families is that the families aren't at that stage of grief where this would be an appropriate conversation, no matter how gentle the subject were handled.

That staqe of grief (acceptance) takes times: weeks and months and possibly years. Of course donation doesn't allow that kind of time; the result is that the process seems unseemly.

I didn't say the family's feeling's were irrelevant. Just that there is a mismatch in when the relevancy takes hold. While you perceive a 'vulture hunt', I think most donor families once they reach acceptance view the donation as a boon, and in many cases, the donation is what allows that family to come to acceptance at an earlier point. It certainly isn't irrelevant for the families, but the relevancy shows up later, and that's why 'hounding' for a donation looks awkward, even if, in my opinion, it's ultimately better for most parties involved.

And I agree with you that there is a huge difference between what we CAN do and what we SHOULD do. I see technology abused everyday. There are some things we shouldn't do just because it's big and techy and impressive. But donation is something we SHOULD do. The ability to give a gift of life to someone else while at the same time providing tiny seeds of sense from what are normally senseless tragedies: win/win/win.

I'm not browbeating you guys. The thread was about thoughts on donations, which implies both positive and negative. If the thread was 'what do you hate about donation', then I'd of probably posted 1 and then dropped it. You guys are certainly entitled to your opinions and you are entitled to express them without feeling that you're being morally beat up. I DO think there's a moral issue here, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHY THERE ARE DIFFERENCE IN OPINIONS. The moral point I focus on (the result) is different than the moral point you are focusing on (the process). And it is reasonable to discuss if the ends justify the means.

Faith,

Timothy.