I Hope This is Not the Latest Trend

[PhyllisMSN]

I hope this is not the latest trend to be putting nurses in jail.

(CNN)Current and former employees of an Ohio nursing facility are accused of mistreating two patients in their care, including one who died as a result of the nurses' actions, Attorney General Dave Yost said Thursday.

A Franklin County grand jury indicted seven people who worked as nurses in 2017 at Whetstone Gardens and Care Center in Columbus, Yost said in a news conference.

The defendants face 34 charges, including involuntary manslaughter and patient neglect, Yost's office said.

One patient "literally rotted to death" as a direct result of the nurses' neglect, Yost said, adding that another suffered physical harm because nurses falsified her medical records and forged signatures.

"This is gut-wrenching for anyone who has entrusted a care facility with the well-being and safety of a loved one," Yost said.

The accused include six current and former employees.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/02/14/health/ohio-nursing-home-patient-neglect-accusations-bn/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fapple.news%2FAoPN6WYqqT6Otez_aEF9qCA

[Susie2310]

1 hour ago, mtnNurse. said:

Here's where we might hit our dead-end of useful back and forth, because I understand you think we should criminalize those nurses...and I don't think so. BON should handle mistakes and negligence; leave criminal laws for criminals.

You continue to make this flawed emotional argument throughout this forum. No profession is above the law. You are saying that nursing professionals should be above the law; that criminal charges should not apply to nurses where the evidence indicates that they have committed criminal offenses in the course of their employment. Criminal laws apply to everyone.

[Wuzzie]

56 minutes ago, mtnNurse. said:

I agree, that is good advice to tell nurses to be willing to quit or be fired rather than continue to work with unsafe work loads or to be willing to cut corners to meet impossible work demands. That is what we most have in our power to do..."vote with our feet" as they say. But is that all the solutions we have for nurses in today's work environments?

Well, yes, but I think you, specifically, need to find a new job. This just sounds like it's hitting too close to home for you. I'm saying that with the best intentions. I hope you know that.

[mtnNurse., BSN]

3 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

4 hours ago, mtnNurse. said:

I agree, that is good advice to tell nurses to be willing to quit or be fired rather than continue to work with unsafe work loads or to be willing to cut corners to meet impossible work demands. That is what we most have in our power to do..."vote with our feet" as they say. But is that all the solutions we have for nurses in today's work environments?

Well, yes, but I think you, specifically, need to find a new job. This just sounds like it's hitting too close to home for you. I'm saying that with the best intentions. I hope you know that.

??? I thought you were prone to more intelligent discussions rather than getting personal, so I'm surprised by your response and would very much like this thread and others to stay on point and not get personal. No, I have my dream nursing job actually, and love it. I am very lucky.

I'm passionate about the rights of working class people, I'm passionate about caregivers, and I would love to live in a country where we take care of our caregivers. I'd love to live in a country where we don't criminalize our caregivers when they were just trying to meet impossible work demands. I will keep discussing it because this is a public forum and where others have the right to call for handcuffs on their fellow nurses, I have the right to state my opinions of why they shouldn't be criminalized.

[mtnNurse., BSN]

3 hours ago, Susie2310 said:

4 hours ago, mtnNurse. said:

Here's where we might hit our dead-end of useful back and forth, because I understand you think we should criminalize those nurses...and I don't think so. BON should handle mistakes and negligence; leave criminal laws for criminals.

You continue to make this flawed emotional argument throughout this forum. No profession is above the law. You are saying that nursing professionals should be above the law; that criminal charges should not apply to nurses where the evidence indicates that they have committed criminal offenses in the course of their employment. Criminal laws apply to everyone.

Well, I could reply that you continue to make a flawed emotional argument about why we should criminalize our fellow nurses when they stray from standards of practice in attempts to keep jobs which make impossible demands of them. But I don't claim your argument is flawed; I just disagree. We both have the right to our opinions and I'm interested in others' opinions, even when they disagree.

I believe the BON should handle accidents and negligence. A nurse's job, and doctor's, and other caregivers, comes with inherent risks to harm and kill while they are attempting to heal and save. Licensing agencies should handle the caregivers' accidents, negligence, and their straying from standards of practice when the caregivers were just trying to do their job.

Criminal charges should be reserved for the true criminals; those with intent to commit a crime; those with malice and intent. If what I'm saying "puts nurses above the law", then it's past time to change the law!

Our caregivers deserve better than to be hauled away in handcuffs when they were well-meaning and trying to do their jobs. If their places of work betrayed them by making impossible demands, and that leads to the nurses having an accident or overlooking something or straying from standards of practice in an effort to do their jobs -- then that is something for licensing agencies to handle, not the criminal justice system.

[Wuzzie]

21 minutes ago, mtnNurse. said:

??? I thought you were prone to more intelligent discussions rather than getting personal, so I'm surprised by your response and would very much like this thread and others to stay on point and not get personal. No, I have my dream nursing job actually, and love it. I am very lucky.

I'm passionate about the rights of working class people, I'm passionate about caregivers, and I would love to live in a country where we take care of our caregivers. I'd love to live in a country where we don't criminalize our caregivers when they were just trying to meet impossible work demands. I will keep discussing it because this is a public forum and where others have the right to call for handcuffs on their fellow nurses, I have the right to state my opinions of why they shouldn't be criminalized.

I told you that I posted that with the best intentions. It was beginning to sound like maybe you were having a terrible experience with staffing issues at your job. I never said you can't post your opinions. There is no need to get testy. I have been nothing but polite to you.

[mtnNurse., BSN]

1 hour ago, Wuzzie said:

1 hour ago, mtnNurse. said:

??? I thought you were prone to more intelligent discussions rather than getting personal, so I'm surprised by your response and would very much like this thread and others to stay on point and not get personal. No, I have my dream nursing job actually, and love it. I am very lucky.

I'm passionate about the rights of working class people, I'm passionate about caregivers, and I would love to live in a country where we take care of our caregivers. I'd love to live in a country where we don't criminalize our caregivers when they were just trying to meet impossible work demands. I will keep discussing it because this is a public forum and where others have the right to call for handcuffs on their fellow nurses, I have the right to state my opinions of why they shouldn't be criminalized.

I told you that I posted that with the best intentions. It was beginning to sound like maybe you were having a terrible experience with staffing issues at your job. I never said you can't post your opinions. There is no need to get testy. I have been nothing but polite to you.

Well, thank you then for your best intentions. I would like to be polite to you too and from what I've seen you post before, you are intelligent and also an experienced and good nurse.

I do get annoyed with posts I've seen among recent threads (not necessarily yours) that imply that someone who defends a nurse from criminality must have self-interest involved. I thankfully removed myself from working in a hospital that demanded to give staff too many patients and every nurse there felt it was unsafe. And I most likely will not put myself back into a situation like that again. As one person put it "I'd rather dumpster dive". So I have no self-interest involved when I seek to defend nurses from criminality.

I do think all of us who disagree are ultimately on "the same side". We are all nurses. We all care about people. We all want our patients to be safe. We all want good working environments, reasonable work expectations, safe nurse-to-patient ratios. We all want a good job and nice work-life balance. I think that most or all of us know that most nursing jobs do not give us these things that we deserve as nurses, as workers. I hope we can all work to change that.

[Oldmahubbard]

As a former RN in LTC, I am astonished that these type of charges are so rarely brought. Because extreme neglect goes on all the time in LTC. Every day. In every state, and every city.

I couldn't leave. There was no money in the bank. We would have lost our house.

The criminals are the owners.

[Wuzzie]

5 minutes ago, mtnNurse. said:

So I have no self-interest involved when I seek to defend nurses from criminality.

Honestly, I never thought it was an issue of self-interest. My experience with people has been often those who are exceptionally passionate about something are that way due to personal experience past or present. And you’re right, although we are on separate sides of this issue we are both in agreement on the desire for good patient care.

[Persephone Paige, ADN]

1 hour ago, Oldmahubbard said:

As a former RN in LTC, I am astonished that these type of charges are so rarely brought. Because extreme neglect goes on all the time in LTC. Every day. In every state, and every city.

I couldn't leave. There was no money in the bank. We would have lost our house.

The criminals are the owners.

This was my point too. These places should not exist. But, it's an industry. The insurances are in on it, the owners. They KNOW these patients don't get good care, but they keep cashing the checks. And hiring minimal staff... God forbid they hire more nurses, might cut into their profits.

[mtnNurse., BSN]

1 hour ago, Oldmahubbard said:

As a former RN in LTC, I am astonished that these type of charges are so rarely brought. Because extreme neglect goes on all the time in LTC. Every day. In every state, and every city.

I couldn't leave. There was no money in the bank. We would have lost our house.

The criminals are the owners.

THANK YOU for speaking up about the reality that many nurses are dealing with all over the country, whether it's LTC or hospitals or other facilities that make money the bottom line over patients and employees! I really wish more people would speak up about this. The grab-the-handcuffs, throw-under-the-bus, shame & blame nurses who seem to be getting their message across louder on this entire forum need to hear from more people like you. YOU are not a criminal if you worked at a place that demanded you take shortcuts in order to keep your job. You did the best you could. You likely did not have time to check for wounds on a ridiculous number of patients if you were hauling a cart as fast as you could up and down hallways to get people their medicine.

Let's start looking at the CAUSES of caring, conscientious nurses making mistakes, having accidents, failing to adhere to standards of practice, and taking shortcuts to keep their jobs. Let's start blaming those causes. Let's start trying to understand those nurses when it happens to them; let's listen to them when they tell us what conditions are like and how they came to take shortcuts (it was normalized in the culture of their workplace...they were expected to do it...their boss demanded it); and for god's sake, let's show some solidarity and fix these problems together instead of thinking there's just a bunch of rogue nurses out there who don't care about their patients! Are there "bad people" in every profession? probably. Are there "bad nurses" who really don't care if they harm or kill people? probably (though I believe MOST nurses become nurses because they have a desire to HELP people). But to not even look at the CAUSES and assume these nurses are just "bad" and deserve criminal charges...come on, have you EVER seen these work conditions where nobody would be able to do what's expected of them, and have you ever needed a job to survive? If you want to change things, change the systems...criminalizing as many nurses as you want will NOT fix these systems!!!

[Susie2310]

4 hours ago, mtnNurse. said:

Well, I could reply that you continue to make a flawed emotional argument about why we should criminalize our fellow nurses when they stray from standards of practice in attempts to keep jobs which make impossible demands of them. But I don't claim your argument is flawed; I just disagree. We both have the right to our opinions and I'm interested in others' opinions, even when they disagree.

I believe the BON should handle accidents and negligence. A nurse's job, and doctor's, and other caregivers, comes with inherent risks to harm and kill while they are attempting to heal and save. Licensing agencies should handle the caregivers' accidents, negligence, and their straying from standards of practice when the caregivers were just trying to do their job.

Criminal charges should be reserved for the true criminals; those with intent to commit a crime; those with malice and intent. If what I'm saying "puts nurses above the law", then it's past time to change the law!

Our caregivers deserve better than to be hauled away in handcuffs when they were well-meaning and trying to do their jobs. If their places of work betrayed them by making impossible demands, and that leads to the nurses having an accident or overlooking something or straying from standards of practice in an effort to do their jobs -- then that is something for licensing agencies to handle, not the criminal justice system.

I posted the following comment to mtnNurse on three other threads. To further the discussion I thought it appropriate to post it again:

"You keep making the point that nurses brains are subject to failure because we are humans. By your logic all workers in all types of occupations should never be charged with any crime due to their negligence unless they deliberately intended to cause harm to the public.

Following your logic airline pilots brains are subject to failure at any moment during an 11 hour flight, and the plane could crash if the pilot gets overwhelmed or distracted. Think of all the many, many flights that take place all over the world, just in the course of one day, yet planes aren't crashing all over the place every day. Should we conclude that airline pilots brains function better than nurses brains? Or do airline pilots practice to higher professional standards? Nursing isn't the only profession with a lot of stressors, distractions, and responsibility/accountability.

I just had a licensed electrician work perform some work for me. Should I assume that he/she may be under extraordinary stressors and be unable to perform safely? I never thought that he/she might actually have been incompetent is his/her practice or might make a mistake that would lead to him/her ignoring basic electrical safety procedures. That perhaps he/she might be negligent to the point that I will get electrocuted. Oh, well, I guess I will just put it down to brain failure on his/her part. In which case, what is the point of professional licensure? If a licensed electrician can't perform their job safely why should I bother using his/her services?

Why bother to have any professional standards for any professions at all? Why bother with licensure? If the public can't trust that a licensed professional will be able to perform to industry standards of safety, why should they bother using the services of a licensed professional? Then we don't have professions, because everyone does the job equally incompetently/unsafely.

If you believe that nursing is a unique profession with extraordinary stressors such that nurses are unable to concentrate on their licensed activities to the point that they are unable to perform safely and must excuse themselves due to brain failure when they inadvertently harm or kill patients due to not being able to perform safely, why should anyone have any confidence in nurses ability to perform safe care? Why should the public go to hospitals?

You are saying something quite terrible, that perhaps you don't realize you are saying, and that is that the public shouldn't expect to rely on licensed professionals to meet industry safety standards. You are saying that licensed professionals shouldn't be held criminally liable for failing to meet industry safety standards; that as long as they did not deliberately intend harm they should not face criminal charges and that their lapse of judgement/unsafe performance however caused should not result in criminal charges.

I ask you a question in return, why should the public have confidence in licensed professionals? Why should I receive nursing care from you? Do you see where this goes? If the general public loses confidence that they will receive safe nursing care, do you think you can take for granted that they will continue to come to the facility you work at for their care? Do you think you might lose your job?

Licensed professions rely on the confidence of the general public. The reason licensed professionals get paid is that the general public trust in the standards of the professions and place their trust in the licensed professionals. If you can't provide safe nursing care why should I come to the facility you work at for my care? If a licensed airline pilot can't fly a plane safely, meeting industry safety standards, why should I fly with that airline? If the problem is endemic to the airline industry, why should I fly at all?"

[LibraSunCNM, BSN, MSN, CNM]

1 hour ago, Susie2310 said:

I posted the following comment to mtnNurse on three other threads. To further the discussion I thought it appropriate to post it again:

"You keep making the point that nurses brains are subject to failure because we are humans. By your logic all workers in all types of occupations should never be charged with any crime due to their negligence unless they deliberately intended to cause harm to the public.

Following your logic airline pilots brains are subject to failure at any moment during an 11 hour flight, and the plane could crash if the pilot gets overwhelmed or distracted. Think of all the many, many flights that take place all over the world, just in the course of one day, yet planes aren't crashing all over the place every day. Should we conclude that airline pilots brains function better than nurses brains? Or do airline pilots practice to higher professional standards? Nursing isn't the only profession with a lot of stressors, distractions, and responsibility/accountability.

I just had a licensed electrician work perform some work for me. Should I assume that he/she may be under extraordinary stressors and be unable to perform safely? I never thought that he/she might actually have been incompetent is his/her practice or might make a mistake that would lead to him/her ignoring basic electrical safety procedures. That perhaps he/she might be negligent to the point that I will get electrocuted. Oh, well, I guess I will just put it down to brain failure on his/her part. In which case, what is the point of professional licensure? If a licensed electrician can't perform their job safely why should I bother using his/her services?

Why bother to have any professional standards for any professions at all? Why bother with licensure? If the public can't trust that a licensed professional will be able to perform to industry standards of safety, why should they bother using the services of a licensed professional? Then we don't have professions, because everyone does the job equally incompetently/unsafely.

If you believe that nursing is a unique profession with extraordinary stressors such that nurses are unable to concentrate on their licensed activities to the point that they are unable to perform safely and must excuse themselves due to brain failure when they inadvertently harm or kill patients due to not being able to perform safely, why should anyone have any confidence in nurses ability to perform safe care? Why should the public go to hospitals?

You are saying something quite terrible, that perhaps you don't realize you are saying, and that is that the public shouldn't expect to rely on licensed professionals to meet industry safety standards. You are saying that licensed professionals shouldn't be held criminally liable for failing to meet industry safety standards; that as long as they did not deliberately intend harm they should not face criminal charges and that their lapse of judgement/unsafe performance however caused should not result in criminal charges.

I ask you a question in return, why should the public have confidence in licensed professionals? Why should I receive nursing care from you? Do you see where this goes? If the general public loses confidence that they will receive safe nursing care, do you think you can take for granted that they will continue to come to the facility you work at for their care? Do you think you might lose your job?

Licensed professions rely on the confidence of the general public. The reason licensed professionals get paid is that the general public trust in the standards of the professions and place their trust in the licensed professionals. If you can't provide safe nursing care why should I come to the facility you work at for my care? If a licensed airline pilot can't fly a plane safely, meeting industry safety standards, why should I fly with that airline? If the problem is endemic to the airline industry, why should I fly at all?"

I have no idea why you think posting this again will "further the discussion," it's obvious you and the poster you've been back and forth with are not in agreement on this issue and we are beating a dead horse here.

Re: the topic of LTCs, I have a grandmother with dementia which has worsened in the last 5 years, requiring her to move from her house to a senior-living community with some home health aide assistance, to an assisted living facility, to the memory care unit in an LTC where she will be from now on. My experience was that the assisted living facilities are the worst of all, keeping residents who have no business on the AL side from moving to the memory care unit to keep their beds filled. The staff was threadbare and poorly trained, and my grandma fell multiple times before we moved her. I listened in disbelief when I went to the daily "happy hour" with her one day and the activities director was trying to talk to the residents about a promotion for referring in new residents to get a discount on rent!!! Half of the residents had no cognitive ability to grasp this, and the other half should not have had to listen to a sales pitch. It's really sickening. I'm grateful she's now in a pretty well-run LTC, which is not fancy or new or pretty but relatively well-staffed and CLEAN. The staff knows her and cares for her well. I shudder to think that what happened in the LTC case we're talking about happens elsewhere and goes unreported.