In the last staff meeting, NM states Dr. A has complained because the female nurses make eye contact with him. We were instructed to respect his (and other doctors) culture and NOT make eye contact or appear assertive. When asked to clarify assertive we were told assertive was "asking or suggesting something for the patients".
Excuse me! I am American and I am living in America! How come these doctors don't have to respect my culture? How come they don't have to respect me (I am a woman)?
Of course I will continue to make eye contact and I will continue to request things my patients need and I will continue to suggest things that the patient needs. I will continue to advocate for my patients. If the doc doesn't like it... tough crap. I live in America and have the rights afforded American women. I am not giving them up to stroke the ego of a bigot.
This really has nothing to do with you being an American. Lots of Americans have the same culture this man does (who very likely may also be an American).
Call a spade a spade: the title should probably read "I'm a caucasian, European-American."
i don't understand the need to be rude. i'm just trying to point out even in the usa cultural norms differ. for instance,do you say ma'am after addressing an older woman? if you go to the south and don't use it,you'd be considered rude.
someone pointed out to "do as thr romans do" quote. well,in america,who are the romans?
if you remember your history, then explaining this question would be null. once again i will explain from the first posts that was posted many months ago; if a person from another country applies to the usa to work here as a doctor, nurse they are to adhere to the policy, proceedures and regulations that they signed before coming here for work there would be no problems. thus, a dr. from another country reporting a nurse for looking directly at him while he was talking with her about a pt; he claimed she should no respect to him. what???? (as the post originally states). wrong, if you come from another country that dictates such rules then please do not come here and try to instill your countries rules such as; be sure to walk behind the dr as he makes rotations to see pts, do not look directly in the dr's. eyes when he talks to you, etc. this will never happen while i and millions of other americans live and work here. he is only here on a work visa and should abide by the rules of the country he has elected to work in. again, if i were to apply to another country that dictated me to wear a dress and head dress all day than it's up to me to agree or disagree with this rule before going to that country. do not come to work in america and expect to have us bow down to your culture and ways while you are here. do not disrespect or be rude to the country who is hosting you.
if you (smartnurse1982) did not read the op from a few months ago, please go back and read what the question was dealing with the hurt a nurse received from a dr from a different country who thought all of our nurses should behave the way the women behave in his country. i believe you missed the point due to the statement you wrote. :confused:
I don't understand the need to be rude. I'm just trying to point out even in the Usa cultural norms differ. For instance,do you say Ma'am after addressing an older woman? If you go to the south and don't use it,you'd be considered rude.
Someone pointed out to "do as thr romans do" quote. Well,in America,who are the romans?
I'm sorry if you thought i was being rude to you. Not at all. I only wanted you to stick to the OP and not stray fro the original comments that have already been made.
Again, I was not rude in any way, however, if you believe I was this was not my intention; it's just that the OP was dealing with a strong issue and so many of us were backing the nurse whose feelings were rightfully hurt.
He was obviously not paying attention to the pt allergies, and when I told him to not give it, he gave me this look like I had just cut off his right hand! He pulled me aside and told me to NEVER question him in front of the surgeons again, because I was a female and the surgeons were male, and it was a matter of pride for him. I told him in the most professional way that I could that I am HERE FOR THE PATIENT, and I am A PATIENT ADVOCATE, and if he didn't pay attention to what he was doing, I would be damned if I was going to sit by and let him harm my patient, no matter WHAT my DNA make-up was!
Specializes in L&D; GI; Fam Med; Home H; Case mgmt.
in the last staff meeting, nm states dr. a has complained because the female nurses make eye contact with him. we were instructed to respect his (and other doctors) culture and not make eye contact or appear assertive. when asked to clarify assertive we were told assertive was "asking or suggesting something for the patients".
excuse me! i am american and i am living in america! how come these doctors don't have to respect my culture? how come they don't have to respect me (i am a woman)?
of course i will continue to make eye contact and i will continue to request things my patients need and i will continue to suggest things that the patient needs. i will continue to advocate for my patients. if the doc doesn't like it... tough crap. i live in america and have the rights afforded american women. i am not giving them up to stroke the ego of a bigot.
i haven't read through this thread but i'm guessing my reply will be redundant. i'm going to give it to you anyway.
Specializes in Edu,MS, Ortho,Trauma, Tele, Dialysis, HH.
I'm not American, I'm a Permanent Resident of the Country. But hey, it doesn't mean that just because I bring with me a culture so different from America I already have the right to insist they LIVE around MY rules because I'd be offended if they don't. I CHOSE to come live and work in America and I've been so blessed to have been able to do so. Although I don't agree TOTALLY in the saying "When in Rome do what the Romans do", I KNOW for a fact that being a NURSE in the U.S. is a different scenario. I WILL BE ASSERTIVE IN MY ADVOCACY FOR MY PATIENTS. I will request for things that I believe as a Registered Nurse my patients would need. I will voice out concerns and I will raise up questions. I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. I can RESPECT foreign doctors who were also blessed to have been able to come and work in this country, but I don't agree in their rubbing their culture on me. There is, after all, what we call "RESPECT & PROFESSIONALISM" --- and that's across the board!
z----you just pointed out that you learned this lesson in childhood. the doctor in question, being from a culture with different ground rules, obviously did not. he was conditioned, most likely from childhood, very differently----to regard direct eye contact as intrusive or even insolent.
which reaction is "right"? there is no "right" here----just cultural norms. if the doctor is reacting out of cultural ignorance, then the best way to handle the problem, it seems to me, would be education. that can take time, because not only does he need to grasp the general rule, but also to learn to recognize when direct eye contact is respectful in our culture, and when it's meant to show defiance or hostility.
it seems pointless, in my opinion, to judge this doctor too harshly, because we have no way of knowing the context of the conversation. it's possible that, once the cultural difference was explained to him, he made a bigger effort to be tolerant, and eventually learned to get along with the nursing staff. that's how most immigrants learn to adapt to a new culture: through trial and error, and being able to confide in natives, who can help them clear up misconceptions.
i simply stated my opinion on an op and did not "judge" this doctor, but exposed something that happens almost daily in many hospitals. i cannot begin to say what happened during that conversation (as you note) but will comment on what the original poster "did" say happened to her on being reported; as this is what this site is about.
i have been doing this a long..........time and know that there are many people from other cultures that become very defensive when "we" american nurses, cna's etc do not follow what they consider "norms". i did not include his childhood as he proved what he learned in childhood by his actions to an american nurse. we must stick with what the original op tried to relay to us. if this dr. indeed changed as you suggested then your suggesting he changed what was programmed into him for x amount of years (at least 30 years) and as you say "we were not present"
again, before ever coming to america to work you must read/study and sign documents understanding american ways. the op was very clear he did not understand our norms. we are professionals and deserve to be treated as such. we have come a long way as women and will not be treated with disregard and disrespect again. if this doctor, as well as other doctor's feel the need to talk down to women, (i.e. no eye contact or use of assertiveness then he/she needs to move back to their own country where they will feel more comfortable within their own culture.
z----You just pointed out that you learned this lesson in childhood. The doctor in question, being from a culture with different ground rules, obviously did not. He was conditioned, most likely from childhood, very differently----to regard direct eye contact as intrusive or even insolent.
Which reaction is "right"? There is no "right" here----just cultural norms. If the doctor is reacting out of cultural ignorance, then the best way to handle the problem, it seems to me, would be education. That can take time, because not only does he need to grasp the general rule, but also to learn to recognize when direct eye contact IS respectful in our culture, and when it's meant to show defiance or hostility.
It seems pointless, in my opinion, to judge this doctor too harshly, because we have no way of knowing the context of the conversation. It's possible that, once the cultural difference was explained to him, he made a bigger effort to be tolerant, and eventually learned to get along with the nursing staff. That's how most immigrants learn to adapt to a new culture: through trial and error, and being able to confide in natives, who can help them clear up misconceptions.
good point. cultures differ in ground rules, not just from country to country, but also from region to region. and who's to say which cultures are right, and which wrong?
whatever culture one comes from is fine, but when working in america then one needs to abide by the contract signed before coming here to work. no need to be rude to anyone, especially a peer that works with/for you; and if not allowing a nurse to look you in the eye when speaking to or being spoken to is rude, then please work in another country where this behavior is considered acceptable.
if there are questions about "packets" given to people who come here or leave to work in another country just check it out as many nurses/doctors do it all the time. i hope this helps you in better understanding what is and is not acceptable when working in america.
I understand respect of culture, but not looking him in the eye!? this is a place of work. you have to look at him. do they tell his patients to not look him in the eye? culture needs to sometimes take a backseat to professionalism
Specializes in L&D; GI; Fam Med; Home H; Case mgmt.
The reason behind this "don't look me in the eye" thing is that there are quite a few cultures who regard women as not only submissive to men, but not valued as human beings. And how dare a mere -woman- look this great man in the eye - much less, tell him what his patient might need! The nerve! Makes me want to vomit.
i simply stated my opinion on an op and did not "judge" this doctor, but exposed something that happens almost daily in many hospitals. i cannot begin to say what happened during that conversation (as you note) but will comment on what the original poster "did" say happened to her on being reported; as this is what this site is about.
i have been doing this a long..........time and know that there are many people from other cultures that become very defensive when "we" american nurses, cna's etc do not follow what they consider "norms". i did not include his childhood as he proved what he learned in childhood by his actions to an american nurse. we must stick with what the original op tried to relay to us. if this dr. indeed changed as you suggested then your suggesting he changed what was programmed into him for x amount of years (at least 30 years) and as you say "we were not present"
again, before ever coming to america to work you must read/study and sign documents understanding american ways. the op was very clear he did not understand our norms. we are professionals and deserve to be treated as such. we have come a long way as women and will not be treated with disregard and disrespect again. if this doctor, as well as other doctor's feel the need to talk down to women, (i.e. no eye contact or use of assertiveness then he/she needs to move back to their own country where they will feel more comfortable within their own culture.
i agree that it's good to learn as much as one can about another culture before becoming a part of it. but all the reading and studying in the world won't prevent some degree of culture shock, or occasional blunders caused by unrealistic expectations. one example of a blunder is assuming that american nurses have the same perception of, and reaction to, direct eye contact, as the nurses in one's own country. that's one of those assumptions that people make, that they don't even realize they have, until they learn the hard way that not everyone the world over shares it.
you seem to be assuming that this doctor is well aware of such fine points of american professional etiquette, but chooses instead to force american nurses to do things his way. it's far more likely that he was simply misinterpreting the action, and needed to have someone explain to him that it's not considered intrusive in the u.s. for a nurse to look him in the eye and occasionally challenge his decisions.
:confused: 
kty1
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