How high have you titrated levophed?

Specialties MICU

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Just out of curiosity---how high have you titrated levophed before? History, pt in with serious health history, admitted with CHF. Coded on the floor. CPR alone brings back a rhythem I come in at 7pm to find her on cpap with an et tube placed. levophed at 30, dopamine at 5, heparin at 9 and propofonal at 20. We attempt ABGs and are unsuccesful, fighting the tube and restraints, increase the propofnal and attempt art line and picc line. Succesful. B/P systolic in the 70s heart rates in the 140s. I cant go too high on the dopamine due to the heart rate, titrate up and down and can not find a balance. I take the dopamine up to 10mcg at one point. Dr insists verbally over the phone I keep titrating the levophed to get bp systolic at the 100 range. Can not be done, I call pharmacy to question just how high I can go, am told there really is no cap?? according to my drug book 30 is range. Eventually pt put on vent, lower the propofonal to try and raise bp. I eventually titrate the levophed up to 60!!! I am so uncomfortable at the 60 range I call the Dr almost in tears--told him I feel like I am treading water and not keeping my head above. FYI I called him when I hit 50 and still had systolic in the 60s. I had the pumps concurrent with 75ns behind the dopamine and levophed. These are running into her picc.

No output in over 12 hours even though almost 2.5 liters of fluids/meds combined in. Dr made aware of I&O. Only order a small dose of Lasix. Not successful. ABG's horrible! FYI patient full code and family even after 3 in depth conversations insists on full code status. I am literally going over my algorithms in the supply room in preparation. Dr tells me to tell the family this is it, this is as high as the drips can go. Pt is 38 yr old. Finally family agrees to no code status, but want to remain where we are at, leave the et tube in and leave the drips where at, but understand we will not be giving any more meds.

The patient passed away shortly after the end of my shift, I was still on the unit so I assisted. Very sad, I felt so frustrated like I should have done something but totally felt like my hands were tied. Plus just didnt know what to do anyways---I was in contact with the ER doc and he had her tele up in er so he could watch. I had contacted primary and heart dr several times through out night. There is something really freaky about seeing an art line bp of 48/43 and a heart rate of 120.

I dont really even know what I am asking for in this post---I feel like I did something wrong, like I should have been doing more, or maybe did too much with the levophed that high. BUt i just didnt know what else to do, So all you critical care nurses, feel free to educate me. I am a new ICU nurse. The learning curve is huge. I had the nursing supervisor on my back most of the night, she said i did fine but I still feel like there was something else I should have suggested to the Drs.

Yeah it is - There is the guilt, the did-I-miss-something feeling....

Somedays its easier to let them go, sometimes it still makes me cry. Just part of being human.

Specializes in gen icu/ neuro icu/ trauma icu/hdu.

38 with ccf. bad karma from the get go. You do what you can with what you've got. what was the ecg like? any chance that this was pure pump failure cardiogenic shock)? Any SVO2/ mixed venous / subclavian gases to differentiate between sepsis/ cardio shock?.

The other thing to remember is that you are only able to make the calls based on your experience and knowledge. I've been playing in the ICU for a while and would have had difficulty keeping this pt in the world of the living.

One final thing don't beat yourself up. You gave the attending doc's the information you had, if they need more they ask for more. II'm hoping your shift coordinator gave you some help as well, they are meant to suplement your knowledge and skills when things get tough. Finaly I've run 200 mcg/min norad levo plus 85mcg/min adrenaline (epi) with Vaso, dobutamine and balloon pump before. They survived until we could get them on a LVAD but didn't make it to the top of the heart transplant list.

Stick with it . You did ok with what you had. This pt has taught you heaps about ICU, nursing and yourself, don't waste it. This pt will live on (sort of) in the lesson's that you have learned.

Sorry if post is scrambled but have just finished nite ending as it started with a code and a threatened airway.

Cheers

Specializes in CVICU, MICU, CCRN-CSC.

I am sorry you had a bad night. I ahve had levo running at 100 ML/hr, Vasopressin at 30 ml hour (3x normal dose) and EPI at 100 ml hour plus giving epi boluses, plus given blood, plus a gazillion liters of fluid and had a B/P of 50.... your patient was probably septic and third spacing..so the CHF was a minor issue to be delt with later....And she was on CPAP? Not SIMV or A/C???? No pulmunologist? You did the best you could do...just chart chart chart to CYA...

Specializes in MICU, SICU.

Why was his gas so bad? Would paralyzing him have helped? I usually shut propofol off completely in a hypotensive pt. Different hospitals have different theories about Levo, which I find strange. The last unit I worked on maxed Levo out at 25 mcg/min. The hosptial I am at now has no cap. I usually request another alpha agonist, vaso and neo especially if the HR is high you don't want to be running dopa.

Specializes in MICU.
i am sorry you had a bad night. i ahve had levo running at 100 ml/hr, vasopressin at 30 ml hour (3x normal dose) and epi at 100 ml hour

why are you telling her the volumes instead of dose?.... so was your levo an 8mg in 250 bag or was it 64mg in 250ml? she asked how high you have titrated a pressor, not the ml/hr.

sorry, i am not gripping at you... just making an observation.

to answer the original question: i had a patient not too long ago that was on 300 mcgs of neo, 90 mcs of levo (that was the docs set max, not our hospital policy max), 20mcg of dopamine and 0.04 units/min vasopressin. i started crrt that night after we went to ct (that was a fun trip!). also had hco3 gtt for a ph of 6.8.... fentanyl and versed for sedation (intubated). after 3 weeks in micu, pt was on weaning trials, successfully extubated and moved out to the floor. i didn't think she would live through the night.... neither did the docs. makes me think twice about ever deciding to withdraw on anyone in my family.

if your patient is hypotensive, propofol is not an appropriate sedation agent.... and do you really get patients comfy on 20 mcs of propofol? it usually takes about 55-80 mcs of propofol for our patients to tolerate ac mode of ventilation. i don't think that you needed to paralyze the patient yet, just adequately sedate them. he wasn't oxygenating well because sounds like he was too awake for an obnoxious mode of ventilation (obnoxious if you are awake) -- he was bucking the vent.

fentanyl causes less hypotension than morphine, so i would ask for fentanyl and versed. versed will cause some hypotension, so i would go heavy on the fentanyl and light on the versed, depending on your pressures. if somone is opioid naive, you can sometimes just use fentanyl to sedate them (we don't get too many of those pts where i work :chuckle)

and you mentioned that you couldn't get an abg. titrating pressors on a patient without an art line is poor management to say it nicely..... this is a reflection on your physicians, not you. however, if you know it is wrong (or bad practice) and you go along with it.... that doesn't sit too well in court. make sure you are charting defensively and have malpractice insurance (that you pay for, don't count on the hospital to take care of you)

you can only do so much with your hands tied behind your back, but i would consider changing employers.:banghead:

lifelongstudent

Specializes in ER, PCU, ICU.

Had a septic pt a week ago or so... 90 of levo, 200 of neo, and 20 of dopamine ... and that was after several liters of fluid. Pt eventually expired.

While we were certainly doing what we could, it was mostly a dog and pony show. Lactate levels were rising and the pt was throwing out lots of ectopy as the family FINALLY made the decision to make the patient DNR.

Only once have I had someone on those dosages of those meds and had them pull through. Unfortunately, they expired a month later from ARF.

There's only so much we can do.

Comments/Concerns:

most recently, propofol-- I would say 40-50 mcgs is more appropriate, unless you really want those guys knocked out!

Levo-- "therapeutic dose titrates up to 30"...after that it's debatable whether it really does anything, but why not go up. we had a pt on 200 of Levo.

This dr. you were in contact was a hospitalist? We don't really work with them, but my guess is they are generalists trained a little in each area, right? what is the chain of command there? if that's comparable to calling an intern or 2nd year, and not getting the desired response/orders...I'd go up the chain of command. For this pt to only be on dopamine and Levo is quite ridiculous. There are many other pressors available. I, too, would have suggested dobutamine (potent inotropic effect, less chronotropic effect), vaso (continuous rate of 0.04 units/min: NO TITRATING), Neo (initially titrate 100-180 to get that B/P up!!!). Also, was the rhythm just sinus tach? Or some other arrhythmia issues we needed to deal with? Also, having that A-line is nice...quick blood draws and ABG's. What's the pH? Maybe check an ionized Calcium, and give some Calcium.

My thoughts, but it sounds like you definitely had a tough night! It really makes it difficult when those doctors don't respond the way we'd like them to! Keep it up : )

Specializes in CTICU.

A few of my thoughts - first of all, sounds like you were not very well supported by your senior nurses!!

If the patient had CCF, they most likely needed a LOT more fluid than 2-3L in 12 hrs (due to the poor starling response in heart failure patients). I definitely would have added a different pressor like vasopressin, or even an inotrope such as epinephrine.

I would have liked an art line, a central line and most likely, a swan for hemodynamic management.

Sounds like the patient was crashing and burning with cardiogenic shock to me. Unfortunately, adding more and more norepinephrine to get a BP is the worst thing to do - it increases the LV afterload and makes the myocardial oxygen consumption worse, which exacerbates the heart failure.

Sounds like the patient needed an IABP early and potentially an LVAD before crashing that badly.

Try not to second guess yourself, but if you get a chance to ask the doc what his rationales were for your learning experience, it would be worth it.

i always like that one, "just curious...if you could explain that to me for my own learning purposes!" It really puts them on their toes. Some attendings actually are grateful for these questions.

Specializes in critical care.

As with other posters we will go very high with Levo, I've seen upwards to 200 mcg, with vaso etc. Have to change the bag every 2 hours it was infusing so quickly at double strength (reg strength is 8mg in 250 at my facility). Sorry you were so freaked! sounds like a BADDD nite.

Was an echo ever done? It sounds like it was more than a gtt issue.. was cardiac tamponade ever ruled out? if the systolic and diastolic were really that close.. sounds like tamponade to me...No amount of medication could have helped this - only a tap!

Specializes in trauma ICU,TNCC, NRP, PALS, ACLS.

Lifelongstudent: sounds like you work at a very very intense ICU, I would love that type of experience

[To answer the original question: I had a patient not too long ago that was on 300 mcgs of Neo, 90 mcs of Levo (that was the DOCs set max, not our hospital policy max), 20mcg of Dopamine and 0.04 units/min Vasopressin. I started CRRT that night AFTER we went to CT (THAT was a fun trip!). Also had HCO3 gtt for a pH of 6.8.... Fentanyl and Versed for sedation (intubated). After 3 weeks in MICU, pt was on weaning trials, successfully extubated and moved out to the floor. I didn't think she would live through the night.... neither did the docs. Makes me think twice about ever deciding to withdraw on anyone in my family.

LifeLONGstudent

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