Hernia Repair Patient Dignity

[Catfostermom]

Since my husband just had hernia surgery, I have been looking into patient dignity.   He went to a male Dr for the surgery.  When he went into the ACC it was all females.   Since we are in Covid restrictions still, I couldn’t go in with him.  He was very uncomfortable with all the females and thought the attitude of I’ve seen thousands of memberes was totally Unprofessional. He felt that while they did their “jobs” they didn’t care how uncomfortable they made him.  Believe it or not males do not want to expose themselves to you.  Just because some of you don’t care who sees what, others do.  You are so correct about the double standards that females wouldn’t put up with that but males have to.  Ladies,  think about how off putting you are to your male pts when you make those comments.  Males also tend to hide their emotions. But, you bet your butt if I was allowed in and saw how uncomfortable he was I would have said something.  He was already nervous and alone and just wanted to get it over. 

[JKL33]

28 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

You must be exhausted working in every single healthcare facility in every single country to know how all nurses behave every single shift. 

 

Is there a particular reason why you are resisting the possibility that your husband's nurses were checking his surgical site because that is prudent nursing care of a post-op patient?

You (or your husband) decided that some of these people had an unprofessional attitude of having seen thousands of memberes. I am not sure how you ascertained their mindset (or the number of memberes any of them have seen). But if they had actually admitted that they had that belief, you surely are adult enough to understand that what they would be trying to convey is that providing care that happens to involve genitalia is not a sexual thing for those providing the care. That's what it means if someone tries to convey something along the lines of "I've seen this before, it is part of my job."  I will not let you get off scot-free pretending that these people had nefarious reasons for their actions.

You may have valid suggestions for how they can do things differently but your implications are still inappropriate.

You seem to want things both ways: You are both complaining that the "I'm not making a big deal/this is part of my job" [aka the "thousands of memberes"] attitude is unprofessional, and also complaining that nurses prudently checking your husband's surgical site was unprofessional. And to that latter point you implied that they were looking at him for sport. So were they acting like they had done all of this before (such that it was a routine matter, not a sexual matter) or were they acting like it was a sexual matter and they wanted to ogle him? Which was it?

Did you concern yourself with whether his male surgeon was ogling him while he was unconscious? Do you think maybe the surgeon likes to do hernia repairs so that he can mess around near mens' junk?  Why or why not?

You don't have to like what I say but you came here with an axe to grind and it is loaded with unfair bias.

Your "thousands of memberes" remark was uncalled for right off the bat. The way you are thinking about all of this is offensive, and you're acting like someone who thinks a nurse would go to work just to see your husband's genitalia. Your comments are sexist and unfair.

[Catfostermom]

54 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

 

Is there a particular reason why you are resisting the possibility that your husband's nurses were checking his surgical site because that is prudent nursing care of a post-op patient?

You (or your husband) decided that some of these people had an unprofessional attitude of having seen thousands of memberes. I am not sure how you ascertained their mindset (or the number of memberes any of them have seen). But if they had actually admitted that they had that belief, you surely are adult enough to understand that what they would be trying to convey is that providing care that happens to involve genitalia is not a sexual thing for those providing the care. That's what it means if someone tries to convey something along the lines of "I've seen this before, it is part of my job."  I will not let you get off scot-free pretending that these people had nefarious reasons for their actions.

You may have valid suggestions for how they can do things differently but your implications are still inappropriate.

You seem to want things both ways: You are both complaining that the "I'm not making a big deal/this is part of my job" [aka the "thousands of memberes"] attitude is unprofessional, and also complaining that nurses prudently checking your husband's surgical site was unprofessional. And to that latter point you implied that they were looking at him for sport. So were they acting like they had done all of this before (such that it was a routine matter, not a sexual matter) or were they acting like it was a sexual matter and they wanted to ogle him? Which was it?

Did you concern yourself with whether his male surgeon was ogling him while he was unconscious? Do you think maybe the surgeon likes to do hernia repairs so that he can mess around near mens' junk?  Why or why not?

You don't have to like what I say but you came here with an axe to grind and it is loaded with unfair bias.

Your "thousands of memberes" remark was uncalled for right off the bat. The way you are thinking about all of this is offensive, and you're acting like someone who thinks a nurse would go to work just to see your husband's genitalia. Your comments are sexist and unfair.

What is your lack of understanding that I get he needed to be monitored, yet you don’t seem to care that a simple cover could have been provided when the incisions are above the waistline.  Your lack of concern for the males dignity is both sexist and unfair.  Try looking at it in a non healthcare professionals view point for a change.  If your teenage son came to you and said he felt very uncomfortable during the process what would you have said to him? Suck it up, it’s what they do. 

[Catfostermom]

1 hour ago, macawake said:

Noooo. That’s not at all what I meant when I recommended the ? strategy.. Seriously, what do you hope to achieve by using sarcasm? 

Again, why are you arguing with us instead of contacting the facility in question? Only they can educate their employees and talk to them about attitudes and respect if that is indeed needed. 

It’s an ASC that is closed on the weekends. I am not sending a letter that can be dismissed or an email that can be deleted. I am making an in person appt to speak with someone. If it happened to him then how many others aren’t shown the dignity they deserve! 

[macawake, MSN]

20 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

It’s an ASC that is closed on the weekends. I am not sending a letter that can be dismissed or an email that can be deleted. I am making an in person appt to speak with someone. If it happened to him then how many others aren’t shown the dignity they deserve! 

Since you’re replying to me, please note that I didn’t say to write a letter or an email. How you contact the facility is of course entirely up to you.

You aren’t answering questions posed to you and from what I can see posting here doesn’t really seem to be helping much? So perhaps just make that appointment? 

I hope you get the answers you’re looking for. 

[Catfostermom]

34 minutes ago, macawake said:

Since you’re replying to me, please note that I didn’t say to write a letter or an email. How you contact the facility is of course entirely up to you.

You aren’t answering questions posed to you and from what I can see posting here doesn’t really seem to be helping much? So perhaps just make that appointment? 

I hope you get the answers you’re looking for. 

I am replying to questions.  But, the lack of concern and and condoning certain behavior is deafening.  I did not start this thread, I found it looking into if this is an issue and it seems to be with some. I did not lump all nurses together, others implied that I was.  In googling questions many men feel this way.  Is it a teaching problem? Is it an I don’t really care what your feelings might be I have a job to do issue?  Is it that much of a burden to grab a towel? A little respect to a patient goes a long way of getting respect back. 

[MunoRN, RN]

7 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

I am replying to questions.  But, the lack of concern and and condoning certain behavior is deafening.  I did not start this thread, I found it looking into if this is an issue and it seems to be with some. I did not lump all nurses together, others implied that I was.  In googling questions many men feel this way.  Is it a teaching problem? Is it an I don’t really care what your feelings might be I have a job to do issue?  Is it that much of a burden to grab a towel? A little respect to a patient goes a long way of getting respect back. 

I think some part of this is based on assumption that following hernia surgery it's the incisions being assessed, when really the incisions themselves are of some, but relatively little concern.  There more acute and rapidly progressing complications that necessitate at least some degree of pelvic assessment, this wouldn't really be possible if the patient's pelvis remained continuously covered.

[TriciaJ, RN]

20 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

I am replying to questions.  But, the lack of concern and and condoning certain behavior is deafening.  I did not start this thread, I found it looking into if this is an issue and it seems to be with some. I did not lump all nurses together, others implied that I was.  In googling questions many men feel this way.  Is it a teaching problem? Is it an I don’t really care what your feelings might be I have a job to do issue?  Is it that much of a burden to grab a towel? A little respect to a patient goes a long way of getting respect back. 

It might be a really good idea to make an appointment with the nurse manager of the unit your husband was on.  S/he can explain the appropriate nursing procedures for your husband's care.

If you had been able to be at his bedside, the nurses would have been able to explain at the time what they were doing.  You would have been able to ask questions.  Your husband was clearly anxious and uncomfortable and may have misperceived things.

I am a female nurse who worked on a urology floor.  I can't imagine any of my colleagues not wanting to help every patient feel safe, comfortable and respected.  I was fortunate not to have to deal with covid restrictions and answering families' questions was an important part of my job.

I hope you can speak with someone who can help put your mind at rest.  That doesn't seem to be us.

[JKL33]

2 hours ago, Catfostermom said:

What is your lack of understanding that I get he needed to be monitored, yet you don’t seem to care that a simple cover could have been provided when the incisions are above the waistline.

What you don't understand and didn't ask about here is why they might have checked lower than the incisions.

 

2 hours ago, Catfostermom said:

Your lack of concern for the males dignity is both sexist and unfair.

I have no lack of concern for any of my patients' dignity, privacy, modesty - any of it. Your sole approach has been to come here and make assumptions about other people.

Come on. How are you not feeling a little silly at this point? You could just issue a mea culpa and start over, you know.

You are literally making assumptions and proclamations about people you have never met. By the way that includes this forum *AND* the people who provided care to your husband.

 

2 hours ago, Catfostermom said:

If your teenage son came to you and said he felt very uncomfortable during the process what would you have said to him? Suck it up, it’s what they do. 

 

If I had a teenage son who brought me this concern I would advise him that healthcare providers don't want to make him to feel uncomfortable and that he should 1) make sure he is educated about what will be happening so that he is not caught off guard 2) participate by sharing his preferences.

I have been attended by healthcare providers of the opposite sex before (which I knew ahead of time that I would be) and I did that exact thing. "I prefer to remain covered until [x];"  or "I prefer to limit people in the room." Etc.

1 hour ago, Catfostermom said:

Is it that much of a burden to grab a towel?

No. It isn't. But depending on the areas of the body that may need to be assessed for potential signs of trouble, these very likely may involve the area covered with the towel.

[Catfostermom]

39 minutes ago, TriciaJ said:

It might be a really good idea to make an appointment with the nurse manager of the unit your husband was on.  S/he can explain the appropriate nursing procedures for your husband's care.

If you had been able to be at his bedside, the nurses would have been able to explain at the time what they were doing.  You would have been able to ask questions.  Your husband was clearly anxious and uncomfortable and may have misperceived things.

I am a female nurse who worked on a urology floor.  I can't imagine any of my colleagues not wanting to help every patient feel safe, comfortable and respected.  I was fortunate not to have to deal with covid restrictions and answering families' questions was an important part of my job.

I hope you can speak with someone who can help put your mind at rest.  That doesn't seem to be us.

So, my question is why didn’t they relay this to HIM while he was there? Wouldn’t that have been the time?  You can obviously tell when someone is anxious or uncomfortable. Isn’t that part of the nurses job to make everyone comfortable in their surroundings?  I’m sorry I thought letting the professionals know that sometimes they come off as indifferent to what a patient might be feeling. Are you mind readers no.. but should you automatically think this pt is totally fine with what you are doing to their bodies without talking with them?  You certainly verify the information enough times, that you can’t  take another minute to talk with them while monitoring them. Just think about the pt. Go the extra step to comfort them... esp when they wake up with no familiar faces around them, not knowing what just happened. Is that really to much to ask! 

[JKL33]

Just now, Catfostermom said:

You can obviously tell when someone is anxious or uncomfortable.

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. It's also significantly more difficult to get a read on people when you only have a short amount of time to do it and otherwise do not have any kind of ongoing professional relationship with them. Have you thought about that?

How do you like this scenario: I think I have an appropriate professional rapport with a patient and it's going well. The patient needs to have some care that involves genitalia. I go to him and explain what is ordered, the basic rationale and the basic procedure involved. I gain permission to perform the procedure. I properly drape the patient. Get all done and the guy says, "I guess I buy you flowers now?"

Hmm. Because I am a professional I choose to view that comment as someone feeling a little uncomfortable and that's just what happened to have come out of his mouth. But I think that is a generous view on my part, since I highly doubt that same guy would make that comment to a male care provider.

Interpersonal communications are a little more complicated than you are giving them credit for.

 

5 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

 I’m sorry I thought letting the professionals know that sometimes they come off as indifferent to what a patient might be feeling.

And that is fine.

That isn't exactly what you did here. You know that.

5 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

Is that really to much to ask! 

No it isn't.

In fact it is what a lot of nurses try EXACTLY to do.

 

[Catfostermom]

2 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. It's also significantly more difficult to get a read on people when you only have a short amount of time to do it and otherwise do not have any kind of ongoing professional relationship with them. Have you thought about that?

How do you like this scenario: I think I have an appropriate professional rapport with a patient and it's going well. The patient needs to have some care that involves genitalia. I go to him and explain what is ordered, the basic rationale and the basic procedure involved. I gain permission to perform the procedure. I properly drape the patient. Get all done and the guy says, "I guess I buy you flowers now?"

Hmm. Because I am a professional I choose to view that comment as someone feeling a little uncomfortable and that's just what happened to have come out of his mouth. But I think that is a generous view on my part, since I highly doubt that same guy would make that comment to a male care provider.

Interpersonal communications are a little more complicated than you are giving them credit for.

 

And that is fine.

That isn't exactly what you did here. You know that.

No it isn't.

In fact it is what a lot of nurses try EXACTLY to do.

 

Then he just happened to get 6 that didn’t care.  1 maybe, 2 is this a pattern 3 this is a problem. As I stated before I’m going to make an in person appt with the charge nurse.  He can not be the only one these nurses have done that to and it does seem to be a problem.  I’m glad if you are one of the good ones. Maybe you can teach empathy to the others.  You know damn well that not all are. 

[JKL33]

7 minutes ago, Catfostermom said:

You know damn well that not all are. 

I do know that some aren't. In the places I have worked, those who don't care are definitely outliers. I'm pretty particular about my interactions with patients and with people in general, which is why I'm here trying to get you to think this through a little more. ?

More common than the outliers who truly don't care, are situations where even those trying to do a good job are at a disadvantage due to the system itself. I would like you to please consider that there is a system behind the front-line experience your husband had, and it is not irrelevant to your concerns:

First of all, your husband did not only have one post-op nurse, but people running around trying to provide assembly-line care to as many patients as possible. You need to know that there has been a massive push for this type of delivery of health care. My primary area is in the emergency department and over the last 5-10 is has been a repeating theme that we're all responsible for all the patients. If some other nurse's patient is ready to be discharged than anyone is to walk in the room and do that. Likewise with delivering medications and everything else. This is a system that some healthcare institutions believe is necessary for "efficiency" and ultimately their bottom line. The ASC (ambulatory surgical center) puts patients through on a tight schedule to maximize profits.

It is VERY likely that the nurses knew that your husband was due to have his surgical site/area checked (which is timed according to a policy/protocol) and whomever was available walked in to do it--to make sure there was no swelling, no bleeding (which might manifest at "dependent" areas such as the scrotum, etc.). They came in and they took a peek to make sure everything looked the way it was supposed to. That is all. They were not trying to disrespect him, they were trying to provide the standard of care by checking on him routinely throughout his immediate post-op period. That is prudent nursing care aimed at keeping him safe. And yes, they were probably running in and out, because that is what our employers prefer.

I do think that we should err on the side of caution and assume that each patient prefers significant modesty unless/until they indicate otherwise, regardless of their sex. That is what I do. But then, I tend to do what I think is right and not worry about things like working faster than humans can work while taking care of other humans. I've been doing this awhile and at this point I care way more about patients and my interactions with them than employers' fantasies about efficiency. So that gives me an advantage on the patient rapport front. ???

I think you will get a lot further if you think some of this through before your meeting.