HELP DNP vs FNP

Published

Can anyone explain the advantages of going ahead and getting my DNP? What can I do clinically with a DNP and not with a FNP? Pay differences? Open my own clinic?

THANKS

Once every degree in the country is moved to a doctorate level they are going to come out with a new degree for people to strive for. It's going to be called DEMIGOD. But the only way I'll get it is if I can fart lightning and puke lava.

Unfortunatly it it will cost 300000 per year and you have write a 5000 page novel to get it.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
It's going to be called DEMIGOD

I hope to attend an MSN-Hercules program one day.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
Elkpark these are clinical specialists using their title in clinical settings. Please read my post more closely before attempting o correct me. The DNP is not currently viewed as this by many, hence what I said previously.

wtbcrna a very well written post and I think it highlights the disorganization within the profession. My concern, and the concerns of many I speak with who look down on the DNP, is that it seems to only exist to put money into the pockets of schools. It qualifies the holder for virtually nothing that an MSN doesn't already qualify the holder for, and can be earned in shady, disreputable online schools. Would you have surgery performed by someone who earned his or her degree online? Why on earth does a nurse holding an MSN need two extra years to earn a DNP, but three-year bridge BSN-DNP programs exist? Can anyone be expected to take that seriously?Dramatics aside, it breeds disrespect for the DNP as a clinical degree, as a doctoral degree, and for the profession as a whole. If the educational process involved in earning the degree can be standardized at the highest levels and clearly defined (you need look no further than these forums to understand that even many nurses have no idea what the DNP is or what is meant to be) then it stands to further our profession greatly. The critics, like myself, need to see that happen before jumping on the bandwagon and being sniggered at by the rest of the medical field.

Even in nonprofit state schools most graduate nursing programs are expected to earn money for the university. This is most evident with APN programs. Graduate nursing students are virtual cash cows for universities. The for profit schools are being heavily reviewed now and some of the largest for profit universities/programs are being censored or closed.

An online program does not make a school bad or good. Sitting in class versus receiving instruction online has not shown to make a difference in outcomes of students. My DNAP comes from a completely online school. All my other degrees are from traditional brick and mortar programs with a couple of online classes from those schools. With a MSN to DNP/DNAP a lot of the interaction comes from online discussions with fellow students. In my DNAP program we were all CRNAs with a variety of experiences. The online discussions provided more interactions than you would normally ever get in brick and mortar lecture format.

There will always be good and bad programs no matter what the degree is. There are MSN programs that are nothing more than diploma mills and there will be dnp programs that do nothing more than the same. Most of those diploma mill programs will not last more than one accreditation period. It is one of the many reasons that people should not consider any program that is not regionally accredited.

Most programs are not going give much transfer credit for work outside of their university. This is the norm for pretty much any degree program and helps to explains why a BSN-DNP and postmasters DNP are often the same length of time (even though most postmasters DNP are often part-time so they are usually 2 years full-time and there are some 1 year postmaster DNP programs).

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.

Many nurses are not aware that there is a APN consensus model that most APN programs are moving towards or have adopted. https://www.ncsbn.org/Consensus_Model_for_APRN_Regulation_July_2008.pdf This is an addition the AACN DNP essentials. http://www.aacn.nche.edu/publications/position/DNPEssentials.pdf One of the regional accreditors requirements. Criteria and Core Components | Criteria, Eligibility and Candidacy | Accreditation Processes The accreditation standards for CRNA programs. http://home.coa.us.com/accreditation/Documents/Standards%20for%20Accreditation%20of%20Nurse%20Anesthesia%20Programs%20-%20Practice%20Doctorate,%20rev%20Jan%202015.pdf

The accreditation standards for NPs. AANP - Certification for Entry Level NPs

Most people think it is simple process to put advanced nursing academic degree programs together, but these same people usually have never even looked at the accreditation standards that must be met to open one of these programs.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.

As to your personal example, thank you for sharing. So 8 semesters including summers is actually a semester shy of three full years, correct? And as to being on campus a few days a semester, I only have to say that there is a great deal of incidental learning that is being missed out on in a scenarios such as these.

I'm in school essentially nonstop from August 2014 until May 2017. Just short of three full calendar years, but three full academic years plus summers. If you wanted to take away the summers and add two more spring/fall semesters, you'd have four full academic years.

Sure, there are advantages to a full on-campus learning experience, but there are limitations as well. Do you think it's fair to limit educational opportunities to those with geographical proximity to a campus that offers a DNP degree? Students don't get out of interacting with each other - via synchronous webinars, discussion boards, and social media.

A great deal of graduate-level learning is synthesis and self-learning, so I'm not sure that sitting in a lecture hall for several hours a week is so crucial to the degree. My program has us doing both a clinical and a scholarly practicum, both of which entail face-to-face interaction, which is not so far removed from than any other graduate student working on a thesis.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

wtbcrna,

I hope you're right about these schools being closed down. I haven't heard anything about this. Yes profitability is an important aspect to all programs, this is undeniable. The issue I'm speaking to is sacrificing quality of education for profit, which seems to be the trend in graduate level nursing education as I see it.

As you're experiences with discussion boards are personal I can't really say much except that I am happy you had that experience. My own anecdotes from discussion board assignments have been universally the opposite, where they were treated as "completion grade" assignments.

It is my understanding that DNAP programs are more structured and standardized compared to dnp programs. Do you find this to be true? I can't help but chuckle when I read the curricula of various DNP programs across the nation. As little as 1 year of courses like Scholarship and Grant Writing and Transforming the Nation's Health... A clinical doctorate indeed.

Do you think it's fair to limit educational opportunities to those whose geographical proximity to a campus that offers a DNP degree?

I'm less interested in expanding educational opportunities than ensuring that education is appropriate and effective in a profession that makes life and death decisions.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Community, OB, Nursery.
I'm less interested in expanding educational opportunities than ensuring that education is appropriate and effective in a profession that makes life and death decisions.

A worthy goal, but it seems like you're categorically writing off any degree obtained online as somehow less-than. I'm in total agreement that diploma mills need to be shut down, but just because a school offers a good portion of their degree via online learning doesn't make them a diploma mill.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
wtbcrna,

I hope you're right about these schools being closed down. I haven't heard anything about this. Yes profitability is an important aspect to all programs, this is undeniable. The issue I'm speaking to is sacrificing quality of education for profit, which seems to be the trend in graduate level nursing education as I see it.

As you're experiences with discussion boards are personal I can't really say much except that I am happy you had that experience. My own anecdotes from discussion board assignments have been universally the opposite, where they were treated as "completion grade" assignments.

It is my understanding that DNAP programs are more structured and standardized compared to DNP programs. Do you find this to be true? I can't help but chuckle when I read the curricula of various DNP programs across the nation. As little as 1 year of courses like Scholarship and Grant Writing and Transforming the Nation's Health... A clinical doctorate indeed.

I'm less interested in expanding educational opportunities than ensuring that education is appropriate and effective in a profession that makes life and death decisions.

State Attorneys General Open Major Investigations of Big For-Profit Colleges | David Halperin

Discussion boards are can be either productive or nonproductive it depends on the program and the class. Our first course in my DNAP program was a 1 credit hour class on how to do online searches and use the online library. That class and the discussion board was a complete waste of my time and money, but I had only been out of school for 2 years where some of my other classmates had been out of school for 20-30 years.

The DNAP program is very specialized. The DNP program is designed for all nurses with individual programs offering additional specialization. The DNAP is accredited for nurse anesthetists only so it makes the DNAP extremely standardized, and more attractive for CRNAs like me. There are pros and cons to both programs. The DNP is more widely recognized than the DNAP, but the DNAP is more specialized and probably more applicable for a CRNAs that wants to teach in a CRNA program.

We have already established that nurses/APNs provide safe and effective care. The DNP/DNAP is hopefully going to expand that further by recognizing the amount of credit hours that already go into MSN programs and converting those hours into a DNP. The DNP/DNAP also provides additional training on how to utilize EBP. It is also important to note that nurses are the last type of advanced independent healthcare provider in the U.S. to move to a clinical doctorate.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Internal Medicine, Geriatric Medicine.

Hhmmm...I just looked you up jlmPMHNPStudent. You do not even a year of experience as an RN according to your profile. Before you bristle, however, let me say that one year of experience does not make you an expert in nursing, nor does it make you an authority on the educational requirements for advanced practice nursing. I will agree with you that poor schools should be shut down (in whatever discipline). I also agree that profit over a rigorous education is not a reason for a school to maintain a program in any discipline. That does not mean a school should not make a profit for providing a service as long as the service it provides is a good one.

I do not agree that online education is a poor option. My BSN, my MSN/ANP, and my DNP were completed primarily online with clinical in the BSN, MSN, and dnp programs arranged locally. In all three programs, we were expected to participate in discussion boards and treat them like we would have had we been sitting in class live. I found the flexibility to be wonderful (I have worked full time throughout my entire nursing education) and the challenge of online classes refreshing. My classmates and I talked by phone, on Skype, and through instant messaging outside of "class" in study sessions, treating those as if they were "face to face" almost daily. I fall asleep in lectures--frankly, they bore me and I don't learn that way. Some of my classmates couldn't make a brick and mortar program work for them because of their schedules. Others would not have been able to obtain an DNP because of their geographic location had it not been for online programs. Not everyone can handle online classes and that's ok. There is a good reason why both brick and mortar programs and primarily online programs succeed: they meet the needs of their students. There's also a good reason why both brick and mortar programs and primarily online programs flop: they are bad programs.

The DNP is a relatively new doctorate. That's ok--it's a growing arm of nursing and it's a needed one. This is what I tell all of the NP and PA students I precept (and this is also what I did when I looked at BSN, MSN, and DNP programs; I did my ASN at the local community college): Look first at whether or not the school has a program you would want to do. Then look at the accreditation. I eliminated any school not NLN accredited even if it had other accreditations. I also looked to see what the pass rates for the ANP boards were when I was considering an MSN program. I checked out ANCC and AANP to make sure that the MSN program I was looking at met the testing requirements for the ANP. I also looked at ratings and asked to speak with students in the BSN, MSN, and DNP programs. Then I talked to instructors who were likely to be instructors and/or advisors.

The moral of the story: DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Schools should meet minimum requirements for accreditation, etc. But it's also incumbent on the prospective student to do his or her homework.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
It is also important to note that nurses are the last type of advanced independent healthcare provider in the U.S. to move to a clinical doctorate.

Maybe my idea of a clinical program isn't the same as yours but to me the dnp programs I have investigated at three reputable brick and mortar schools have offered nothing that even remotely sounded like any type of clinical education in fact they sounded more like a PhD program.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
Maybe my idea of a clinical program isn't the same as yours but to me the DNP programs I have investigated at three reputable brick and mortar schools have offered nothing that even remotely sounded like any type of clinical education in fact they sounded more like a PhD program.

"Comparison Between Research-Focused and Practice-Focused Doctoral EducationResearch- and practice-focused doctoral programs in nursing share rigorous anddemanding expectations: a scholarly approach to the discipline, and a commitment to theadvancement of the profession. Both are terminal degrees in the discipline, one inpractice and one in research. However, there are distinct differences between the twodegree programs. For example, practice-focused programs understandably place greateremphasis on practice, and less emphasis on theory, meta-theory, research methodology,and statistics than is apparent in research-focused programs. Whereas all research focusedprograms require an extensive research study that is reported in a dissertation orthrough the development of linked research papers, practice-focused doctoral programsgenerally include integrative practice experiences and an intense practice immersionexperience. Rather than a knowledge-generating research effort, the student in a practice focusedprogram generally carries out a practice application-oriented final DNPproject,” which is an integral part of the integrative practice experience." http://www.aacn.nche.edu/publications/position/DNPEssentials.pdf

This isn't my idea of a clinical doctorate or your idea of what clinical doctorate is. The DNP and the DNAP is well defined through essentials of doctoral education for advanced nursing practice and through the COA for nurse anesthetists.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

Thanks for the links wtbcrna, great info. The DNAP sounds like it's in a place that I hope the DNP will eventually get to: A doctorate that is highly structured and provides advanced clinical training within its respective major.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Join the Discussion