Hard Time Dealing With Patient Rights

Nurses Relations

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Hello all,

So I'm still a rather new RN student, almost finished with my 2nd semester, and I have a huge problem: Patient Rights. Specifically their autonomy. In my classes we talk about advocating for the patient, for their rights, for their autonomy. But in clinical I've already been told to violate my patients twice! The first time I did violate my patient and I felt disgusted with myself. The second time I refused to violate the patient and made others angry at me. So I need your help! Please help me sort this out so I can have my morals in-tact and also stay on everyone else's good side! If someone could please take this really serious that would be so great as I'm stressing out big because of this. Also, please know this is barely my second clinical I've been to, and we were only taught how to do a head-to-toe assessment thus far, and that's all we're allowed to do. NOTHING else!

So here's the first scenario:

I walk into a female patients room. She was in a car wreck and cannot move much or talk, but can still make conscious decisions by shaking her head yes/no. My teacher tells me that she doesn't want any male nurses helping with changing/bathrooming before approaching her. The first thing my teacher wants me to do is auscultate posterior lung sounds so I walk up to her, introduce myself, and tell her what I'm going to do. As I move my stethoscope to her back she shakes her head no. Presumably, I think she doesn't want me to touch her as she feels uncomfortable with a male nurse. So I ask her if she doesn't want me to listen to her lungs and she shakes no. She shakes her head and her shoulder, "no". So I tell my teacher, "she doesn't want me to touch her." My teacher tells me, "It's okay, just do it." My teacher brings me to her and tells me to auscultate the posterior lung sounds as the patient remains tense as I'm listening. I myself feel awkward and disgusted with myself. Did I do the wrong thing? Cause I'm sure I did. I literally think I wont forget the way this female looked like and what I did to her... I have a huge problem with violating peoples' rights/autonomy.

The next scenario is a little different. This is the one I want the focus to be on. It's a little long as I want to give you the nuanced details.

A male patient about 9 days after having a right sided CVA is paralyzed on his left side of his body. At this point in time he has no decreased LOC. A nurse tech is with me in the room as the patient states he needs to urinate. As the patient says this, the tech states he needs to go and asks if I can help the patient. I naturally tell him yes.

So I'm in the room alone with the patient and the patient tells me they have him urinate into these containers with measurements on them that are sitting on the table by his bed. I pick it up, walk over to the patient's bed and ask him if he's ready to urinate. In my mind (as I was never taught this) I'm assuming I need to grab his member for him and place it into the container so he can urinate into it or at the least hold the container for him while he holds his member with his functional right hand (this is what I thought "help the patient" meant when the tech told me to help him). Anyway, the response he gives me after asking him if he's ready to urinate is, "Yeah, but I can do it by myself." I say, "Okay, would you like me to step out as well for your privacy?" He says, "Yes." So I step outside of his room for awhile. As I'm outside his room the tech comes back and says, "Did you help him?" I tell him, "Yes, let me see if he's done." I ask the patient if he's done and he tells me, "I don't know who designed these thing but when I ****** into it, it just came back out." I say, "Okay, so your bed is wet now?" He says, "Yes."

So, I tell the tech who is right outside the door, and he looks angrily at me and says, "Didn't you help him?" I said, "Yes. He told me he wanted to do it himself and he wanted his privacy." The tech then angrily tells me (which is what I'm shocked about): "Of course they're going to tell you that. You just do it anyway!!!" Immediately my brain breaks. Is this right? Am I supposed to disregard what my patient tells me? "Just do it anyway"!!!???

I feel bad for "causing" the mess so I offer to help the tech clean it/change the bed linens. He tells me, "No, just go away. I got it." And I once again feel like crap for this time doing what I feel was the right thing. Could someone please tell me if I did the right thing and also tell me how I can deal with this problem of wanting to stick of for the patients rights/autonomy without having others hate me for it? I feel like I'm less valuable to a employer for not possessing this trait.

Please, I'm so stressed. I'd gladly disregard a patients autonomy if their LOC was diminished in certain situations, but if they are alert and have complete LOC, I have no idea how I could ever violate their requests.

Thank you soooooo much. :(

Specializes in Acute Care - Adult, Med Surg, Neuro.

Patients requests re: caregivers are USUALLY accommodated, however it is not required at my facility. "No male caregivers" is usually the only time that these requests are granted. However even then it isn't a requirement. If there is no other female caregivers available or if it would cause undue hardship on the staff, then another solution needs to be found.

It is against our hospital policy to allow patients to requests caregivers based on race, religion, etc etc.

This is absolutely incorrect.

A competent patient has the absolute legal and constitutional right to refuse any test, treatment or procedure for any reason they may choose, without prejudice to receiving any other needed medical care. This includes refusing a specific caregiver.

Touching a patient after they have said or indicated "NO" is an act of battery, which is a criminal act.

When a patient refuses you have limited legal options.

1. Comply with the patient's request.

2. If unable to comply with the request, discharge the patient if their condition permits, or transfer them to another facility if it doesn't.

Some patients do not want to be seen by students at all, and that is also their right. By putting both you and the patient in an uncomfortable position, your teacher was being disrespectful of both of you.

You were correct to want to respect the patient's rights, and what your teacher did was wrong.

This is my understanding too.

Specializes in LTC Rehab Med/Surg.

I can't imagine being that female patient. At the mercy of my caregivers.

The only avenue of communication is a head shake. Yes or No. And I'm ignored.

It seems like the student had a lot more compassion than the teacher.

As far as the man missing the urinal, we would have done exactly as the OP did. If he refused help, we'd have allowed him his privacy, and then cleaned up the mess. Every time he said he'd do it himself. I'd try like heck to convince him to let me help, but if he refused, his request would be honored.

Not necessarily...

There are times where a pt is mentally incompetent, yet can appear to be conversing in "normalities" and without complying with treatment will have greater complications, skin breakdown, etc; that would place the pt with more harm than good.

Moving forward, debrief with your instructor on issues, as well as the nursing staff with your working with to help create strategies in approaching pts and helping maximize the care that they need.

You will take this as a learning experience and it will get better over time. :yes:

In neither example was this a concern, especially considering that the OP is a student and patients have a right to refuse care by students. I stand by my post.

Hello all once again!

Thanks for the awesome responses! What's going on seems to be what goes on everywhere I bring up the problem. One side believes you should just "help" the patient as to lessen the burden on staff/yourself. The others really believe, down to a moral point, in the right of the patient to say no. I'm in the latter of the group. I feel really horrible about myself if I don't listen to a completely conscious human beings' request to not touch/help them.

That being said, it seems the "solution" is to really try to persuade the patient to do as you would like them to. Which is something I could definitely work on... But my other big problem was dealing with others getting angry at me. I think I'll just have to tell them why I did what I did and how strongly I feel against disregarding their requests.

Good learning experiences.

Hello all once again!

Thanks for the awesome responses! What's going on seems to be what goes on everywhere I bring up the problem. One side believes you should just "help" the patient as to lessen the burden on staff/yourself. The others really believe, down to a moral point, in the right of the patient to say no. I'm in the latter of the group. I feel really horrible about myself if I don't listen to a completely conscious human beings' request to not touch/help them.

That being said, it seems the "solution" is to really try to persuade the patient to do as you would like them to. Which is something I could definitely work on... But my other big problem was dealing with others getting angry at me. I think I'll just have to tell them why I did what I did and how strongly I feel against disregarding their requests.

Good learning experiences.

I am not a lawyer, and am not attempting to give legal advice, but I strongly suggest that you research what the law says about a competent patient's right to refuse care and compare that to what sharkdiver said. I understood from your OP that your patients were both mentally competent to make decisions about their care; my comments only apply in that situation. You can check this matter with your State Board of Registered Nursing. This is very important. My understanding is that you can be charged with battery if you do not respect a competent patient's wishes/request to refuse care from any caregiver, and provide care in spite of the patient's wishes. I was taught in nursing school that a competent patient has the legal right to refuse care from anyone, for any reason. Research this for yourself. Also, the Nurse's Code of Ethics addresses situations such as these.

When I was a nursing student, when we went to the hospital the night before to get our assignments and do our clinical prep, we were taught to always introduce ourselves as students to the patients we would be caring for in clinicals next day, and we were told that if a patient told us they didn't want to have a student, we were to say "thank you", and we would not provide care for that patient, and would let our instructor know so they could assign us another patient.

Exactly!

I believe this to be true. Not just legally true, but innately true, and morally true. If a competent patient/human being doesn't want you to touch/help them, then that is what you do!

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
Exactly!

I believe this to be true. Not just legally true, but innately true, and morally true. If a competent patient/human being doesn't want you to touch/help them, then that is what you do!

Here lies the issue: it is not always black and white; especially when again, just because a person sounds coherent or communication may be not up to par; you can leave someone in their own excrement because they said "no" or :no: ; you can't

Sometimes instead of asking passively being assertive in what is going to happen or can elicit assistance from the pt; it is a key to trust in the nurse-pt relationship.

Here lies the issue: it is not always black and white; especially when again, just because a person sounds coherent or communication may be not up to par; you can leave someone in their own excrement because they said "no" or :no: ; you can't

If the patient is capable of making their own decisions, then you must honor their refusal of nursing care. To disregard their refusal of such care and do it anyway is unlawful and unethical. If a competent person who has been incontinent refuses to allow you to touch them, then you cannot touch them even if that means letting them sit in their own excrement.

If the person is not capable of making their own decisions, then they cannot give consent and therefore consent is implied, so you carry out the nursing procedures that are in their best interest.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
If the patient is capable of making their own decisions, then you must honor their refusal of nursing care. To disregard their refusal of such care and do it anyway is unlawful and unethical. If a competent person who has been incontinent refuses to allow you to touch them, then you cannot touch them even if that means letting them sit in their own excrement.

If the person is not capable of making their own decisions, then they cannot give consent and therefore consent is implied, so you carry out the nursing procedures that are in their best interest.

Ok...

My approaches have been working for about 15 years; I will continue to NOT let competent people lay in their own excrement; and ethically intervene and continue to allow my assertiveness and techniques that turn no's to "yes", instead of being dinged for negligence. :blink:

In the first scenario, the patient shook her head "no" and continued to shake her head "no" and the student touched her anyway. Are you saying this is okay?

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
In the first scenario, the patient shook her head "no" and continued to shake her head "no" and the student touched her anyway. Are you saying this is okay?

Not saying it's ok or not, actually.

:blink:

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