Hard Time Dealing With Patient Rights

Nurses Relations

Published

Hello all,

So I'm still a rather new RN student, almost finished with my 2nd semester, and I have a huge problem: Patient Rights. Specifically their autonomy. In my classes we talk about advocating for the patient, for their rights, for their autonomy. But in clinical I've already been told to violate my patients twice! The first time I did violate my patient and I felt disgusted with myself. The second time I refused to violate the patient and made others angry at me. So I need your help! Please help me sort this out so I can have my morals in-tact and also stay on everyone else's good side! If someone could please take this really serious that would be so great as I'm stressing out big because of this. Also, please know this is barely my second clinical I've been to, and we were only taught how to do a head-to-toe assessment thus far, and that's all we're allowed to do. NOTHING else!

So here's the first scenario:

I walk into a female patients room. She was in a car wreck and cannot move much or talk, but can still make conscious decisions by shaking her head yes/no. My teacher tells me that she doesn't want any male nurses helping with changing/bathrooming before approaching her. The first thing my teacher wants me to do is auscultate posterior lung sounds so I walk up to her, introduce myself, and tell her what I'm going to do. As I move my stethoscope to her back she shakes her head no. Presumably, I think she doesn't want me to touch her as she feels uncomfortable with a male nurse. So I ask her if she doesn't want me to listen to her lungs and she shakes no. She shakes her head and her shoulder, "no". So I tell my teacher, "she doesn't want me to touch her." My teacher tells me, "It's okay, just do it." My teacher brings me to her and tells me to auscultate the posterior lung sounds as the patient remains tense as I'm listening. I myself feel awkward and disgusted with myself. Did I do the wrong thing? Cause I'm sure I did. I literally think I wont forget the way this female looked like and what I did to her... I have a huge problem with violating peoples' rights/autonomy.

The next scenario is a little different. This is the one I want the focus to be on. It's a little long as I want to give you the nuanced details.

A male patient about 9 days after having a right sided CVA is paralyzed on his left side of his body. At this point in time he has no decreased LOC. A nurse tech is with me in the room as the patient states he needs to urinate. As the patient says this, the tech states he needs to go and asks if I can help the patient. I naturally tell him yes.

So I'm in the room alone with the patient and the patient tells me they have him urinate into these containers with measurements on them that are sitting on the table by his bed. I pick it up, walk over to the patient's bed and ask him if he's ready to urinate. In my mind (as I was never taught this) I'm assuming I need to grab his member for him and place it into the container so he can urinate into it or at the least hold the container for him while he holds his member with his functional right hand (this is what I thought "help the patient" meant when the tech told me to help him). Anyway, the response he gives me after asking him if he's ready to urinate is, "Yeah, but I can do it by myself." I say, "Okay, would you like me to step out as well for your privacy?" He says, "Yes." So I step outside of his room for awhile. As I'm outside his room the tech comes back and says, "Did you help him?" I tell him, "Yes, let me see if he's done." I ask the patient if he's done and he tells me, "I don't know who designed these thing but when I ****** into it, it just came back out." I say, "Okay, so your bed is wet now?" He says, "Yes."

So, I tell the tech who is right outside the door, and he looks angrily at me and says, "Didn't you help him?" I said, "Yes. He told me he wanted to do it himself and he wanted his privacy." The tech then angrily tells me (which is what I'm shocked about): "Of course they're going to tell you that. You just do it anyway!!!" Immediately my brain breaks. Is this right? Am I supposed to disregard what my patient tells me? "Just do it anyway"!!!???

I feel bad for "causing" the mess so I offer to help the tech clean it/change the bed linens. He tells me, "No, just go away. I got it." And I once again feel like crap for this time doing what I feel was the right thing. Could someone please tell me if I did the right thing and also tell me how I can deal with this problem of wanting to stick of for the patients rights/autonomy without having others hate me for it? I feel like I'm less valuable to a employer for not possessing this trait.

Please, I'm so stressed. I'd gladly disregard a patients autonomy if their LOC was diminished in certain situations, but if they are alert and have complete LOC, I have no idea how I could ever violate their requests.

Thank you soooooo much. :(

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
LadyFree28, I take GREAT exception to what you say, even in your example of the aspirating pt. If a pt. is A&O and denies/refuses care for ANY reason their wish should be respected and documented in the pts. chart notes VERBATIM! CYA, so to say. The fact that they "could" suffer more harm than good is NOT your concern anymore than deciding that they don't "really" want to be a DNR and that they "could" have a better/more favorable outcome if you just treated them instead.

Just to be clear; I have NO issue with pts refusing, AGAIN, the paramount POINT that I am making is that the OP will eventually learn how to hone skills where it maximizes care in those situations; also, not everyone who is saying no that seems "baseline normal" is NOT, and sometimes leaving the pt to their own devices can cause more issues as well; I would be a wealthy woman today for every pt and my other colleagues pts over 14 years that said "I got it" that didn't get it and I was fortunate to catch them.

This is what I was taught, NOT to be misconstrued as legal advice. If a pt. is NOT a DNR, you follow their wishes and WAIT for them to deteriorate (aka lose consciousness/pass out) and THEN act in accordance with what a reasonable and prudent person would want done in that situation (suction/bagging/CPR......). If you touch a pt. against their will it is considered battery and charges CAN be brought against you AND your license, even if it hasn't YET happened in all your years of experience. Once a person is no longer A&O you have implied (as opposed to informed) consent and battery isn't as much of an issue (DNR an exception). This should all go back to your CPR training and information learned about Good Samaritan Laws, implied consent, informed consent, neglect, abandonment, etc. laws.

I was taught the same thing; however, getting people to a point where they are almost dead, can be construed as neglect in some cases, because of a lack of intervention-LTC comes to mind; POCs are updated, interventions applied, but some refusals are eventually intervened for the benefit of the pt due to other criteria and issue that arise by blindly accepting "no"; the OP has to learn that as well; I have learned from the experience of witnessing DOH violations for a pt saying "no", and not going beyond that; that doesn't always fly :no:

Specializes in Complex pedi to LTC/SA & now a manager.

First I'm glad every one is correctly saying physical contact without consent is battery. ;) I was in a similar situation as scenario one twice in nursing school however a much different outcome. First time patient said no, I informed my clinical instructor she accompanied me back to the patient . Explained what I was asking to do, explained that minimal movement was needed on her part and thus no expected discomfort and that minimal exposure to respect dignity. She also explained that she (the patient) had a right to refuse but as my instructor she needed to confirm "informed consent" and refusal (or permission). With the expanded explanation the patient relaxed and consented. I learned another way to explain myself while anticipating the patients concern (in this case the patient was concerned about 1. Modesty/dignity and 2. Possible pain/discomfort from moving. With my instructors kind words, explanation and reassurance the patient consented to working with a student.

The second refusal patient, my instructor again requested the patient's consent after fully informing of what needed to be done. The patient declined and requested no students. My instructor thanked the patient for their time and informed the patient's nurse. Another staffer said we should have proceeded as how else can we students learn. My instructor calmly explained that patient decisions & requests when reasonable should be respected (if the patient requests only blond, blue eyed female nurses & students wearing white uniforms that would not be considered a reasonable or necessary request) even if the patient was declared mentally incompetent they still have rights, especially if they are not a danger to self or others and it's not a life/limb/death situation.

For the second scenario I would have handled it a little differently. Perhaps put a chux pad under in case of spills. If the patient was a fall risk, but permitted to dangle (assuming there wasn't an order for direct assistance with toileting or direct supervision when side rails down/sitting on edge of bed for safety) I would ask permission to wait behind curtain just in case this way the patient has privacy, you are right there to help if asked and can act right away if there is a safety issue.

Specializes in LTC Rehab Med/Surg.

No means No. As far as I'm concerned, that extends to nursing and health care, as long the one saying "no" is completely oriented. I can't imagine any other area in our society when saying "no" means "maybe". You can get yourself in some real hot water by not properly recognizing what "no" means.

There are absolutes. If "No" isn't an absolute, I'd like to know what it is.

You can intimidate your patient. You can browbeat them into submission. But to me that's an abuse of power.

I'd talk to my patient and try to determine where the "no" is coming from.

I'd attempt to change their mind, but I wouldn't expend a lot of energy on it.

I would extend the same courtesy to my patient I'd demand for myself.

My husband would testify that nothing makes me madder, than someone trying to talk me into something when I've already said no.

It's insulting. As if I don't know what I want. Or that I'm too stupid to see things the smart/right/reasonable/better way.

Specializes in Complex pedi to LTC/SA & now a manager.
No means No. As far as I'm concerned, that extends to nursing and health care, as long the one saying "no" is completely oriented. I can't imagine any other area in our society when saying "no" means "maybe". You can get yourself in some real hot water by not properly recognizing what "no" means.

There are absolutes. If "No" isn't an absolute, I'd like to know what it is.

You can intimidate your patient. You can browbeat them into submission. But to me that's an abuse of power.

I'd talk to my patient and try to determine where the "no" is coming from.

I'd attempt to change their mind, but I wouldn't expend a lot of energy on it.

I would extend the same courtesy to my patient I'd demand for myself.

My husband would testify that nothing makes me madder, than someone trying to talk me into something when I've already said no.

It's insulting. As if I don't know what I want. Or that I'm too stupid to see things the smart/right/reasonable/better way.

I think trying to find where the no is coming from fear or misunderstanding we can provide education.

Simply doesn't want to or personality issues unless life/limb/death imperative we should accept the no, document the refusal. If life/ limb/death imperative notify attending, social work, supervisor, family or whomever necessary.

If a patient doesn't want a student then honor that request though I see no issue on what my instructor did in confirming the refusal as some students would claim everyone refused if they thought they could slide by doing "nothing"

Who said I take pride in ignoring pt wishes? :confused:

I can easily say you take pride allowing your pts to be unsafe?

Let's not make ASSumptions, dear.

Here's the deal; the OP can not shy away from making this decision where it may warrant an escalation if care, that's my point; I'm interested in helping the OP hone skills from a shocking experience; I don't want the OP to shy away from situations where when someone says "no" and it needs to be addressed; then doesn't react, then will have to explain why he didn't intervene.

I am comfortable making astute decisions where there the need for intervention is GREATER than a "no" from a pt that may be lacking insight; let's not mistake a intact person that may be incoherent in the course of their care. :no:

Please don't call me dear. It's condescending.

You are totally wrong if you think you can touch a person who has told you "No".

Naturally, if a patient refuses nursing care, we can attempt to educate them as to why such care is necessary. Sometimes, in doing so, the person changes their answer to "Yes". In such a case, then you have obtained consent.

Consent can be implied if the person is in an emergent situation and is unconscious or their judgment is impaired, or if they are a minor or have been deemed incompetent by the court.

But in reality, if I, a competent person, have told you "No" and you proceed anyway, you have committed battery. Period. No shades of grey.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
Please don't call me dear. It's condescending.

You are totally wrong if you think you can touch a person who has told you "No".

Naturally, if a patient refuses nursing care, we can attempt to educate them as to why such care is necessary. Sometimes, in doing so, the person changes their answer to "Yes". In such a case, then you have obtained consent.

But in reality, if I have told you "No" and you proceed anyway, you have committed battery. Period. No shades of grey.

I stand by my statement, and since we don't know each other, AGAIN, the fact remains, not everyone is coherent nor is "no" appropriate, NOT going to EVER ignore that FACTOR. :no:

Again, I rather OP intervene in those cases where they can be overridden; we have enough nurses that issues with inaction, especially when intervention is needed, and not be scarred to the pint when that intervention is needed.

We are going to agree to disagree, because I KNOW for a fact that I DON'T commit battery, and it may be a FACT that you may potentially are inactive towards such situations, then again, I won't make ASSumption, as you are so willing to make.

It is what it is...

I stand by my statement, and since we don't know each other, AGAIN, the fact remains, not everyone is coherent nor is "no" appropriate, NOT going to EVER ignore that FACTOR. :no:

Again, I rather OP intervene in those cases where they can be overridden; we have enough nurses that issues with inaction, especially when intervention is needed, and not be scarred to the pint when that intervention is needed.

We are going to agree to disagree, because I KNOW for a fact that I DON'T commit battery, and it may be a FACT that you may potentially are inactive towards such situations, then again, I won't make ASSumption, as you are so willing to make.

It is what it is...

What???

That makes no sense.

You have an opinion that seems to be, from what I can grasp, that in situations where you, as the nurse, feel it is appropriate, you can disregard a patient's refusal of nursing care.

The fact remains that a *competent* patient has a right to refuse, and that you have a legal obligation to honor that.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
What???

That makes no sense.

You have an opinion that seems to be, from what I can grasp, that in situations where you, as the nurse, feel it is appropriate, you can disregard a patient's refusal of nursing care.

Never said that. :no:

The fact remains that a *competent* patient has a right to refuse, and that you have a legal obligation to honor that.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp.

What is hard for you to grasp is that I was addressing, AGAIN, that there will be instances where "no" is NOT coming from someone who is NOT COHERENT; incoherent and mentally incompetent people say "no"; some sound just as competent as we do, but in reality, they're NOT.

As JBN succinctly put it, just because one says, "no" may not be the end of it; being assertive enough to prove feelings or assess the situation helps.

AGAIN, for the last time so I won't keep hijacking the thread, I am interested in the OP moving forward and helping the OP understand, that not every "no" will be "no"; Sorry but not every "no" means back down and leave a pt, or don't help them, especially when they do need assistance.

You are still stuck on the situation; I am not; my focus is on not allowing the OP to become one of those nurses that shy away when a pt says "no", and doesn't probe, or at least get someone to help; THAT's a FAR bigger issue to deal with; these first two situations were very confusing for the OP; he must learn to assess and discern; how we do this is ask the pt questions; elicit help; and when all else fails, get someone else; that's what one does; we can close up shop on all pts that say "no"; from my experience from all the years that I have been in this business, and witnessed people just simply walk away because someone just said "no", you can't JUST walk away; doing so can be JUST as neglectful as touching; the key is learning WHEN it's appropriate, and to say it's NEVER appropriate in an absolute manner is incorrect.

I stated in the example I gave;

And yet, I still have my license intact, and will continue to; because I don't deal with absolutes. :)

For instance, I had a pt shake their head when they actively apirating; I had to bag and suction that pt all night before the decision was to transfer the pt out; when the pt came back, they thanked me, and we developed a great rapport; they admitted the no was because they were scared, but because of how I handled myself, they were appreciated that I didn't back down.

I have more stories like this; I am very willing to share. :)

These experiences shaped me; I have NEVER ran roughshod over someone's rights; but according to YOU, this would be battery-but it WASN'T; and that, to me, is where YOUR disconnect lies with my viewpoint, and my experiences.

It's imperative to share that particular experience because that person was coherent, unable to speak but needed intervention; that doesn't fit into the absolute for YOU, but that the reality and challenges that we do engage in; and I will NOT steer the OP in that direction, but have the OP keep in mind that these issue DO arise, and it's not simple and

absolute-it's NOT, and I have experienced it; the OP I am sure wants to make the best decision, and will hone his skills better by understanding those aspects, and learning from that "gray area" as well.

In several of my posts I have referenced the exception for being mentally altered (i.e. impaired judgment). Why do you insist on ignoring that and behaving as if I am saying otherwise? It's puzzling....It's almost as if you're not even reading my posts.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
In several of my posts I have referenced the exception for being mentally altered (i.e. impaired judgment). Why do you insist on ignoring that and behaving as if I am saying otherwise? It's puzzling....It's almost as if you're not even reading my posts.

I explained my position, and that was directed toward the OP. YOU continue to want to insinuate that I "force" nursing care into people, bypassing my sole point of posting, and creating this conversation about my viewpoint, which is imperative as a viewpoint worth examining, but then again, you seem stuck in continuing this banter on my exception that I wanted to chime in and have the OP think about.

Since I think you got the exception, there's no point going back and forth on my point then, really.

I stand on my viewpoint, and that's where I choose to stay. :blink:

I explained my position, and that was directed toward the OP. YOU continue to want to insinuate that I "force" nursing care into people, bypassing my sole point of posting, and creating this conversation about my viewpoint, which is imperative as a viewpoint worth examining, but then again, you seem stuck in continuing this banter on my exception that I wanted to chime in and have the OP think about.

Since I think you got the exception, there's no point going back and forth on my point then, really.

I stand on my viewpoint, and that's where I choose to stay. :blink:

What??? Again, this doesn't make any sense.

All I can do is infer meaning since your post isn't coherent.

From what I can infer, what you meant to say to the OP is that in cases where an emergent condition exists and the patient's judgment is impaired, then consent is implied. Is that right? In that case, we agree.

I simply see no reason to muddy the waters for a new nursing student regarding a competent patient's right to refuse nursing care. If a patient is competent, and no emergent medical condition exists, then they have a right to refuse nursing care, and to proceed against their wishes is battery.

Now, that does not mean that they say "No" and we simply shrug our shoulders and walk away. As nurses, we have a duty to care, and by extension to make sure that the patient understands the ramifications of refusing such care. Often, once the patient's concerns have been addressed, they will give consent. Once consent has been obtained, the nurse may then proceed. But as long as the patient is of sound mind and says "No", we cannot proceed. This is what the nursing student needs to be aware of.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
What??? Again, this doesn't make any sense.

All I can do is infer meaning since your post isn't coherent.

From what I can infer, what you meant to say to the OP is that in cases where an emergent condition exists and the patient's judgment is impaired, then consent is implied. Is that right? In that case, we agree.

I simply see no reason to muddy the waters for a new nursing student regarding a competent patient's right to refuse nursing care. If a patient is competent, and no emergent medical condition exists, then they have a right to refuse nursing care, and to proceed against their wishes is battery.

Now, that does not mean that they say "No" and we simply shrug our shoulders and walk away. As nurses, we have a duty to care, and by extension to make sure that the patient understands the ramifications of refusing such care. Often, once the patient's concerns have been addressed, they will give consent. Once consent has been obtained, the nurse may then proceed. But as long as the patient is of sound mind and says "No", we cannot proceed. This is what the nursing student needs to be aware of.

And that is where the issue is; we do agree; however I feel that the student DOES have to know the "muddy the waters" viewpoint of nursing; he is going to be faced with many issues, and I continue to feel that he has to learn to hone those skills, you may not agree; that's where we will have to agree to disagree.

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