Group chats and cheating?

Chronic Care Coordinator · Oct 17, 2020

15 hours ago, londonflo said:

Been there, I have told students to relook at their drug calculations and answer to review it. When all 60 students handed them in I couldn't look at all of them. I realized I was given preferential grading to some struggling. Never did it again.

Seems like this was a teachable moment. I mean, didn't the Dean hire her?

I am not sure if that was the only issue with him. There were racial issues and preferential treatment for white students. Brown skinned me got a B plus for 2 classes he taught and A plus for all other courses in the FNP program! Others with my skin color had similar issues. So it was not just the proctored exam that select students ( all white) got the right answers from him but I think there were other complaints. I never spoke up in his class as he always had a way of putting you down that made you wish that you had never opened your mouth. This was over 16 years ago! Now I would have taken him to task and upper management with my maturity and experience. You live and learn!

londonflo · Oct 17, 2020

1 hour ago, spotangel said:

This was over 16 years ago!

This kind of discrimination and bullying will last a lifetime on those impacted. Glad you have tried to shake it off.

Chronic Care Coordinator · Oct 17, 2020

26 minutes ago, londonflo said:

This kind of discrimination and bullying will last a lifetime on those impacted. Glad you have tried to shake it off.

Now, I do not ignore but speak up.

When you are a student you are afraid that the professor may fail you for confronting him. So you stay quiet as you just want to finish and get out!

People who discriminate lose the opportunity to know how awesome another person from a different race may be and how much you could learn from the individual and their culture. Lot of it is from your upbringing! I made sure my kids had friends from different ethnicities and races who came home and celebrated birthdays! It's a great way to know each other and also have a support system for your kids! It was his loss not mine!

I just did a Taylor swift "Shake them OFF!" LOL!

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Oct 17, 2020

When I taught students, I was like most faculty who knew full-well that students would, um, collaborate. Has ever been thus. So I told my students that since more than many, nursing is a collaborative profession, I was OK with them discussing the material, doing group projects, or collaborating on weekly plans of care, and the like. BUT they had to include everybody's name on them, even if they were individual assignments. So if Kim asked Mary for help on a care plan, Kim turned it in but she had to acknowledge that she got help from Mary on (X, Y, or Z), and Mary had to say that she had helped Kim, Bob, and Sarah on theirs with (A, B, or C). Nobody got marked down for doing this, either giving or receiving.

Outcome was interesting, and not entirely unexpected. Over the course of the semester, the Kims got help from more people, and fewer people wanted to help her more than once. The Marys got asked often to help others, and she was frequently cited, but rarely asked for help from others. So I could see who was a leader, who was lazy or having more trouble doing their own work and relying on others, whose work was individual and whose derivative, who was developing expertise and who was coasting on others' efforts ... and the learning part of all of this showed up in the exams (which were in person, proctored).

We do learn from our nursing colleagues and we should not be afraid to ask for help or receive constructive criticism. Having students learn that was my goal in structuring things in that way. I was not unhappy with how it worked out.

9kidsmomRN · Oct 17, 2020

I try topick my battles and only combat those that could potentially harm others. In the end, by cheating on quizzes, the only people that these students are hurting are themselves.

I would report this because it IS HURTING OTHERS. hopefully people who cheat in school won’t pass boards, but they might. Then sub par nurses are entering the field. This is not the type of person that I want as my coworker to watch my patients if I get a break or to give me report.... This kind of person who will take a “shortcut” now will take shortcuts later and endanger patients. it is a character issue. Hoping that the professors will catch on soon and eliminate these wannabees from the program. Anyway... glad you are out! Good move!

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Oct 17, 2020

See, that's the thing about this. You are precisely right: Cheaters hurt only themselves. Faculty DO know it goes on, DO know who's doing it, and DO know that you can't cheat on NCLEX or a proctored in-person exam. This is a problem that will take care of itself. We just thought it would be interesting to co-opt the whole system and introduce a different kind of accountability, peer pressure, into the mix. This mirrors what happens in the workforce, something that isn't really well-simulated in most curricula. Just being on the floors for clinical, even having a turn at being "charge," doesn't do as much as we would like, does it?

Remember that NCLEX is nothing more than a way to get an entry-level credential, like a driver's license. Nobody expects a new driver to be competent, and a new grad nurse is still on probation (possibly for many months) when hired for a first position. He or she will be watched like a hawk. Shortcuts won't work for long in either setting.

If my anecdote from years past isn't to your liking, then fine. I just put it out there as a different way to deal with such things.

londonflo · Oct 17, 2020

1 hour ago, Hannahbanana said:

Faculty DO know it goes on, DO know who's doing it,

I am offended by this statement. We were scrupulous in cheating prevention measures: When a type of 'camera pencil' came out we supplied the pencils/erasers and collected them after the test. Every class used the school-supplied pencils. We supplied the calculators. We had monitored test review (post grading) and signed out the test copy (with all rationales) One faculty member signed them out, one watched to make sure notes/cameras were not employed. Only 10 students were allowed in the room at one time. We had atleast 2 versions of the test and these were given out alternately so a student would have a different version on each side of them. Tests were numbered A 1, B 1 by the secretary. We also had students write their name on the test. We had 2 faculty monitors (we helped eachother) to watch during tests. Students had to put their belongings (with phone turned OFF) at the front of the classroom and could not retrieve their things until the last test was handed in. No soda/coffee cups at their desk, no wearing ball caps (so we could watch their eyes) scratch paper given and collected with test.

If there was cheating going on, they were not very good cheaters.

Besides the need to have a fair secure way to measure students understanding of nursing, you need accurate data to evaluate the curriculum and your own teaching. If everyone gets the question correct, you make it tougher. If many do not get it right you evaluate your teaching of that question. In order to use Par-scoring (developed by Susan Morrison of Health Education System Inventory - HESI) you have to have accurate data.

I mentioned on another thread that faculty can also review the results on their teaching by reviewing the Mountain Measurement data. This data uses student results on NCLEX and is invaluable in program and curriculum evaluation. This service is expensive but it has great value. These value-added services can help but you need to have a healthy budget for this. It is too late to try to fix poor NCLEX scores or percent passing/failing if you don't keep monitoring your graduates achievements every semester.

londonflo · Oct 18, 2020

1 hour ago, Hannahbanana said:

We just thought it would be interesting to co-opt the whole system and introduce a different kind of accountability, peer pressure, into the mix.

I had a Dean that used 'peer pressure' to control everything - for example, the student lounge full of dirty dishes - 'lock the door - the students can confront whoever left the dishes' - This soured me on peer pressure - the Dean saw it as a way to avoid any kind of confrontation, to abdicate her authority. My favorite most bizarre decision she made - we had upholestered benches in the school lobby for guests to sit down while they were waiting. She felt the students were sitting too much in the lobby so she had the benches removed. Then all guests had to awkwardly stand while waiting.

When we began the transition from diploma to BSN we had 60 students. In 5 years we were down to 40, then 30 in 10 years.

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Oct 19, 2020

On 10/17/2020 at 7:41 PM, londonflo said:

I am offended by this statement. We were scrupulous in cheating prevention measures: When a type of 'camera pencil' came out we supplied the pencils/erasers and collected them after the test. Every class used the school-supplied pencils. We supplied the calculators. We had monitored test review (post grading) and signed out the test copy (with all rationales) One faculty member signed them out, one watched to make sure notes/cameras were not employed. Only 10 students were allowed in the room at one time. We had atleast 2 versions of the test and these were given out alternately so a student would have a different version on each side of them. Tests were numbered A 1, B 1 by the secretary. We also had students write their name on the test. We had 2 faculty monitors (we helped eachother) to watch during tests. Students had to put their belongings (with phone turned OFF) at the front of the classroom and could not retrieve their things until the last test was handed in. No soda/coffee cups at their desk, no wearing ball caps (so we could watch their eyes) scratch paper given and collected with test.

If there was cheating going on, they were not very good cheaters.

I said nothing to give offense. I meant to communicate that sooner or later (or sooner!) faculty do know when there's cheating going on (factual statement). Kudos for the anti-cheating measures you put in place; nothing I said is meant to denigrate those efforts. It's just that as I used to say if some students put half the effort into studying as they do into cheating or arguing points, they wouldn't have to cheat or argue points LOL.

On 10/17/2020 at 7:41 PM, londonflo said:

Hannahbanana, BSN, MSN · Oct 19, 2020

On 10/17/2020 at 8:09 PM, londonflo said:

I had a Dean that used 'peer pressure' to control everything - for example, the student lounge full of dirty dishes - 'lock the door - the students can confront whoever left the dishes' - This soured me on peer pressure - the Dean saw it as a way to avoid any kind of confrontation, to abdicate her authority. My favorite most bizarre decision she made - we had upholestered benches in the school lobby for guests to sit down while they were waiting. She felt the students were sitting too much in the lobby so she had the benches removed. Then all guests had to awkwardly stand while waiting.

When we began the transition from diploma to BSN we had 60 students. In 5 years we were down to 40, then 30 in 10 years.

Peer pressure is not a synonym for passive aggression, which is what it sounds like your dean was doing. However, the sort of peer pressure that comes from group expectations for good behaviors can be a powerful force for good. If a student knows that the faculty member grading papers will see that time after time she gets substantial help from her peers, and those peers discover that everybody is helping her but she's not reciprocating, word will get around and the group ethos will push her to doing better. Small preparation for what will happen at a job when she tries the same thing (assuming she passes her entry-level pass, NCLEX)-- pretty soon nobody will have time to help her and she will fail there, too.

Natural consequences teach the best.

Guest856929 · Nov 3, 2020

On 10/11/2020 at 6:13 AM, Emeraldstorm said:

Good morning!

I am a first year nursing student and have been totally online (besides labs) because of Covid. Our program is usually all in person. Because of this, the people in my class wanted to make a group chat so we can get to know each other and help each other out with studying etc. Unfortunately it has turned into helping with quizzes. Not so much exams because they are proctored but now I’m stressing about it because some of them are blatantly asking for direct answers and others are giving them. I don’t know what to do? Do I leave the group? I’m scared I’m still going to get in trouble because I was part of the group but the majority of our class is. But I don’t want anything to do with all that cheating. ?

Leave and shut up! Don’t Snitch!

WestchesterNurse, RN · Nov 6, 2020

You documented your knowledge of cheating when you left the group. The group has your admission. If it is against school policy, they will “take you down with them.”

If you have a faculty advisor, ask them what the policy is, if you are unsure. Let them know that you became aware of a situation, didn’t participate, extracted yourself from it, but don’t want it to be an issue at a later time.

Our student handbook associated cheating and those privy as equally culpable for the aforementioned reasons - professional integrity in the workplace - Med errors and the like.

While you can state you aren’t comfortable naming names, you can simply state they are members of that group, and that all may or may not be aware or participate in the cheating.

You needn’t identify the cheaters or those who know, but simply stating that it is happening, is sufficient. Again, you left an electronic papertrail that will follow you.

The very fact you came to an anonymous sounding board, simply says, you know right from wrong, you just need to know, that sometimes doing the right thing has repercussions, other times, a stern warning.
Start with you academic advisor.

And nurses are voted annually, the most trusted profession. Your internal disquietude shows you have the ethical and moral compass in the making of a nurse.
Many in my cohort were expelled, and failed. It was upsetting. But at the end of the day, they weren’t people that I would want to work should -shoulder with. I didn’t trust them with projects, papers, assignments, SBAR, patients, or anything else, so why would I ever after graduation?