4.0 GPA ...Great memorizing abilities.Yes...Good thinking/reasoning skills maybe not!

RNsoon! · Oct 23, 2006

A previous poster wrote: "LOL! I did my final project in my Nursing issues class on this very same subject. It was evaulating nursing school admission criteria vs other professional programs, such as med school, law school, pharmacy school, and dental hygiene. We lack sorely in comparison."
How can you compare nursing school admission standards to those of med school and law school, which require bachelor's degrees at a minimum? I can't speak to pharmacy programs -- there are none in my home state -- but to be admitted to nursing school (ADN or BSN) or a dental hygiene program requires only a high school diploma as the minimum academic credential. (I'm not talking GPA here, only credential.) So, yes, nursing admission standards "lack sorely" in comparison because a BSN requires far less education than an MD or a JD.
Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between graduate nursing programs, medical schools and law schools?
Flame on. I'm wearing asbestos.

:yelclap: Totally agree!

RNsoon! · Oct 23, 2006

I wonder if those who insist that NS should increase their admission standards actually applied to Ns with a 4.0 GPA.hmmmm..Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..lol

santhony44, MSN, RN, NP · Oct 23, 2006

Yes, I understand that. I was simply saying that was one of the possible problems that could arise from an interview. I agree, most jobs require an interview, but even then there is still the possibility of personal bias.

There might be a way to set up a computer program to make selections that are totally unbiased, but I doubt that would work, either.

I just thought that worrying about someone yelling "discrimination!" was not a good reason to forego the interviews. After all, unless you say something like, "Oh, we see you're purple. Very sorry, but we only take two purple people a year and those slots are filled," then the applicant won't know for sure why he or she was not chosen.

There's always personal bias in an interview situation. Most of us probably don't know why we may be biased against someone. I had the experience once of interviewing with someone after a long hard morning of travel (at great expense to the institution). I walked into his office behind the HR lady, shook his hand, looked into his eyes, and knew I wasn't gettting the job. I have no idea why. I chalked it up to experience and let it go.

ortess1971 · Oct 23, 2006

I wonder if those who insist that NS should increase their admission standards actually applied to Ns with a 4.0 GPA.hmmmm..Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..lol

Not quite a 4.0 but a 3.87..still pretty good I think, especially for someone who took 3 classes a semester and worked 40 hours....Ultimately, I think it has to be a combination of factors for admission. I just think that the desire to be a nurse is not enough, you have to be able to do college level work. Sadly, far too many students are not(or they are able, but are lazy) and this doesn't benefit them in the long run either because schools don't give you a refund if you fail. They could care less if you pass, they just want the tuition..

icugirl33 · Oct 23, 2006

Thank God for the high standards. We have enough problems with nursing as it is. I started school with 90 people and graduated with 35. All of the 90 original students had GPA no lower than 3.6. If someone graduates from nursing school with a high GPA, it's because they are truly smart. Students are tested on application and analysis of knowledge. Definition is what is requires memory (like pre reqs).

Gods child · Oct 23, 2006

There might be a way to set up a computer program to make selections that are totally unbiased, but I doubt that would work, either.
I just thought that worrying about someone yelling "discrimination!" was not a good reason to forego the interviews. After all, unless you say something like, "Oh, we see you're purple. Very sorry, but we only take two purple people a year and those slots are filled," then the applicant won't know for sure why he or she was not chosen.
There's always personal bias in an interview situation. Most of us probably don't know why we may be biased against someone. I had the experience once of interviewing with someone after a long hard morning of travel (at great expense to the institution). I walked into his office behind the HR lady, shook his hand, looked into his eyes, and knew I wasn't gettting the job. I have no idea why. I chalked it up to experience and let it go.

I agree, especially with the bolded statement. The goal of my reply was just to point out the downside to interviewing nursing candidates. The good probably outweighs the bad.

Natkat, BSN, MSN, RN · Oct 24, 2006

We had our first student drop last week. She had a 4.0 and admitted that she takes tests well. When we got around to clinicals though she freaked out. For some reason she didn't realize that she was going to have to touch patients. Many of my classmates have a 4.0 and are seriously struggling. They're still trying to memorize everything instead of doing critical thinking.

I think a high GPA is desirable but not the whole picture. I think an interview might have helped weed out the person who is undecided and might have tried nursing school to see what it's like. I don't know what the answer is, but there should be a way of figuring out if a person has the people skills to be able to handle patient care. A personality test perhaps?

CritterLover, BSN, RN · Oct 24, 2006

[color=sienna]higher admissions standards? i think they are sorely needed.

yes, there is a nursing shortage. however, there is a bigger shortage of good nurses. i personally believe that inconsiderate/incompetent/unethical nurses make the nursing shortage worse by contributing to high burn-out rates in their coworkers.

when you are talking about increasing admission standards, i would say "yes," though not gpa-wise. having high grades isn't all that it takes to make a good nurse. not all 4.0's are equal. and, as one poster alluded to, some people with high gpas don't relate well to others. (think of some doctors you know :lol2: )

you have to have a certain level of intelligence to be a good nurse, but other things are important, too. it is just harder to measure them. some schools may screen for these. i don't think the majority do. it would be more time-consuming and difficult, but probably well-worth it in the end. it would help lower attrition rates, and may help to improve the overall quality of graduates.

i agree with smilingblueyes that some sort of interview should take place. i think that some sort of on-site essay on the day of the interview would be a good idea, too (just to make sure it was really the applicant that wrote that admisison essay). it wouldn't be expected to be a "perfect" essay, but you would want to see that the person can string a few sentences together and still make sense. some people can't.

i think that much of the emphsis on high gpas has to do with it being a quick and easy screening tool. but, as not all 4.0 are equal, it isn't always an effective screening tool. i'm not disputing that successful nursing students tend to have high gpas, especially their science gpas. that only makes sense. but there is so much more to being a nurse. simply having a high gpa doesn't mean you would make a good nurse (think again about that doctor -- would you want him/her as a nursing coworker, or as your nurse?)

you are always going to lose some students during the course of a nursing program. personal issues come up, financial situations change, among other things. but isn't it silly to lose a nursing student because they didn't know they were going to have to touch dead people? or don't want to have to bathe people? shouldn't something like that be discovered before taking up a seat in the nursing program?

i guess i would advocate for a minimum gpa standard, which i think most schools have. but there are other characteristics -- healthcare experience, volunteer work, written communication skills, interview -- that need to be seriously considered. some sort of way to measure ethics, since that is something i see as sorely lacking in many of my coworkers. i don't know about letters of recomendation. i just don't know how reliable they really are. how hard is it to find three people who like you and will say nice things?

NurseExplorer · Oct 24, 2006

OT: Why does the thread title keep changing? What is the subject of this thread?

The title is confusing.

(restored mistakenly edited post )

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 24, 2006

I wonder if those who insist that NS should increase their admission standards actually applied to Ns with a 4.0 GPA.hmmmm..Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..lol

may want to re-read some of the posts.

mariedoreen · Oct 24, 2006

It's been my experience that those who complain the loudest about 4.0 students are those who can't pass a test to save their life. Mainly because they are also the one who spends their Friday nights out having fun with their friends and favorite alcoholic beverage. Come Monday morning the bemoaned 4.0 student is making it through a tough exam simply because they buckled down and prepped for it. Period. The one who fails it and complains to everyone around that "Yeah he passed it, but I'll bet he has no common sense and will be a crappy nurse" is incredibly easy to see through.... both in the halls and on this forum.

Lalalalalalaalalala...Im not saying anymore..

(edited out potentially inflammatory line)

SmilingBluEyes · Oct 24, 2006

It's been my experience that those who complain the loudest about 4.0 students are those who can't pass a test to save their life. Mainly because they are also the one who spends their Friday nights out having fun with their friends and favorite alcoholic beverage. Come Monday morning the bemoaned 4.0 student is making it through a tough exam simply because they buckled down and prepped for it. Period. The one who fails it and complains to everyone around that "Yeah he passed it, but I'll bet he has no common sense and will be a crappy nurse" is incredibly easy to see through.... both in the halls and on this forum.

This can be true. My grades did not come easily and I am not a brainiac or at all gifted. I just worked my butt off, period. I spent a lot of nights/days/weekends studying while my classmates who did not do so well spent their time, doing who-knows-what. I would have much rather gone out with friends, spent the time playing with my preschool-aged child, had dinner with my husband, read trashy novels or spent the nights watching mindless TV---- but I knew I would never graduate unless I buckled down and studied hard.

I did exactly ONE study group and learned really quickly why some people loved these. They liked to sponge off those who had studied and expected the info to be spoon-fed to them. That was the last time I did that ---- After that experience, I just studied with one or two friends who were willing to pull their weight and had more to contribute than sponging off others. Many of these "sponges" did not go on to graduate. No surprise.

The ones who did flunk out had all manner of reasons why---but I did not hear one them own up to their own lack of effort or time management skills. They tended to blame the "mean instructors" or the "unfair grading scales", or even some of their classmates for "not helping them through the program". There were one or two hardship cases where the staff worked with these students and did all they could to keep them in the program, and that, I thought was cool. They wanted the hard-working and honest students to succeed.

Like already said, not everyone is a 4.0 student. I think there are a lot of people who earn less than 4.0 that can be and are excellent nurses. But everyone who succeeded in school worked very hard and did not "skate" through it, not even the smartest ones in my class. The B/C students who worked hard, graduated right alongside the 4.0 students just as they deserved to, and they went on to be excellent nurses.