Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ?? - page 13

I am watching FOXNews and they just reported they have received a "bulletin" about a shooting at a nursing college in Tuscon. They will break in more more news as they get it. Two women have been... Read More

  1. by   nightingale
    I, for one, will not hide behind rheotrical statements....

    I embrace my colleagues to have more intelligence then that...
    Originally posted by Youda
    Everytime you close your ears to someone screaming for help, as Bob did many times, you are part of the problem.
    I guess I don't recall in the letter at all when the shooter claimed he had screamed out for help? I don't recall one attempt at all on his part, to reach out to someone and say he needed emotional/psychological help?

    The point is, things happen in everyone's life that upset or hurt them. It is not that moment that matters, it is how we choose to react to it.

    I am not denying that there could have been some inappropriateness going on, but I will never know, because I wasn't there. All we will ever have is one man, the shooter's, account of it. He chose to make it so we could never hear, or empathize, with the people on the other side of the story. And for that he is a coward, who instead of standing up for himself and making different choices, he picked the easy way out.

  3. by   JMP

    I thought I was a bleeding heart..... listen, I read your posting and I for one DO NOT feel responsible one bit for what the killer did.

    I use my emphathy at work, where bad things happen to people all the time and as a professional I try to foster, support and understand what path lead them to our ICU, whatever that path was.

    This guy??????? I agree with Suzy he took the COWARD'S WAY OUT and I hope he is burning in hell right now for what he did. Cold hearted? Not in my books, the three dead nursing instructors where not perfect, but no one I REPEAT NO ONE deserves to DIE because someone is else having a ****** life. This KILLER did not learn from his mistakes, he just kept on making them.
  4. by   LasVegasRN
    Originally posted by nightngale1998
    I, for one, will not hide behind rheotrical statements....
    LMAO! You said you would, I said you can't. I don't see how that is hiding behind a rhetorical statement? Perhaps when you're done embracing those more intelligent than myself (talk about rhetoric!), you'd take the time to explain it to me?

    Originally posted by JMP
    I for one DO NOT feel responsible one bit for what the killer did.

    This guy??????? I agree with Suzy he took the COWARD'S WAY OUT and I hope he is burning in hell right now for what he did. Cold hearted? Not in my books, the three dead nursing instructors where not perfect, but no one I REPEAT NO ONE deserves to DIE because someone is else having a ****** life. This KILLER did not learn from his mistakes, he just kept on making them.
    Well said JMP!

    Nobody was perfect in this case, but there were better, more appropriate, and less fatal ways to institute change.

  7. by   nightingale
    Originally posted by LasVegasRN
    Well Vegas my dear.. one picture is worth a thousand words.. it bears repeating.. please allow me the indulgence....
  8. by   Q.
    Why is it that because the killer had a crappy time at life, it is suddenly MY problem? Was the killer around for me when I failed Chem 101? What about when I failed boards and had to go tell my manager who just hired me as GN for my dream job in L&D?

    Let's keep in mind, the killer has a version of the story that you are all suddenly taking as gospel. So much so that you are honoring his request at calling him Bob, not matter how much that tramples on the graves of the dead. Tell me, without looking, what were the first names of the victims? Do you even remember? What were their speciality areas? What courses did they teach? Were they married? You don't even know, do you? How utterly pitiful.

    Yanno, what about the possibility that the killer's version is nothing but a twisted, sick LIE? Ever think of that?

    I fear the day as an educator I am attacked for failing a student. I fear the day I come here to post that event and instead get blamed for it, as Mark L&D was by a poster here.
    Last edit by Susy K on Nov 1, '02
  9. by   Q.
    I'd also like someone to address just what they feel the killer's responsibility was in all of this.
  10. by   Stargazer
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Stargazer honey, where are you? If you sympathize with him please explain to me WHY.
    Susy, I empathize with Flores because I experienced some of the same things that he did in nursing school. In my second year of college, I went through the one and only clinical depression of my life, mostly due to the kind of instructor bullying that Flores described and that we have heard about from so many other folks on this board. This depression became a self-fulfilling prophecy as it caused me to begin distancing myself from my friends, roommate, boyfriend, and family. I shut down emotionally. I perceived the whole world in shades of gray.

    By nature, I am a problem-solver. But I felt cornered and isolated and couldn't see any way out of my situation. All of you are asking why Flores didn't ask for help. You know what? I didn't either, for the simple reason that it didn't even occur to me. That level of problem-solving was simply beyond my capabilities at that point in time.

    So did I get a gun and go shoot my nursing instructors? No, I didn't. But then again, I grew up with loving, supportive parents and had never been in the military, served in a war or had any sort of familiarity with guns. What scares me so much about this story is that, who knows? Had some or all of those factors been different, maybe that could've been me.

    I absolutely do not and cannot justify what he did. I cannot follow his mental path the whole way from entering nursing school until the moment when he fired the first shot. But I CAN follow him partway down that path, and that scares the crap out of me. As Helen said earlier, no one chooses to be depressed or mentally ill. And once you're there, it's like pushing a piano uphill to find your way out.

    I see some of the same thing happening here that happened when Andrea Yates drowned her children, and it reminds me of what author Gavin de Becker, a former FBI criminal profiler, says about people's reactions to serial murders and other violent criminals. It is much easier to call them monsters, to leap to distance yourselves from them, because it gives you a falsely comforting idea that no matter what, you could NEVER, ever, be like them, and no one you know could ever be like them, and therefore you are safe. And it's simply not true. We are all human. We all have pressures and problems. We all have violent impulses, no matter how well controlled. We are all susceptible to mental illness. And the wrong confluence of genetics, upbringing, socialization, and life experiences could conspire to make any one of us like any one of them.

    The saddest and most dangerous part of this kind of mindset is that, if you can convince yourself that this is just an isolated genetic aberration, that there's nothing to be done, that there are no warning signs, that it comes out of nowhere--then we are going to miss learning whatever we can learn from it to try to ensure that it never happens again. That there are identifiable factors, that there are warning signs, that there are supremely f*cked-up systems in place that simply AREN'T WORKING, and need to be examined and changed.

    If we can't learn anything at all from this mess to try to prevent this from ever happening again--that, to my mind would be the greatest tragedy of all.
    Last edit by Stargazer on Nov 1, '02
  11. by   Youda
    I am going to paraphrase the following words and website. The material is copyrighted, so check the link for the true version:

    What is the true message of the Arizona shootings?

    To answer this, we need to ask, Why do students spray bullets at their instructors? It must be realized Robert Flores committed premeditated acts of mass murder and suicide. As anyone who ever watched Perry Mason knows, premeditated murders have motives . The decision to kill not only others, but himself, was a very serious one, made with a great deal of pain and deliberation. And he was smart enough to make sure to kill himself before being caught. Had he remained alive, he would be looking forward to decades of living hell, locked up with other vicious murderers, loathed by an entire world, and tormented by their own feelings of guilt. To plan and carry out such a horrible act, Flores, therefore, must have had a very powerful motive for wanting to shoot up his instructors.

    What was that motive? Was it lack of gun control? Did he think, "I am suffering so much because the gun control laws in the country are too lax, and too many people are getting killed. So let's go on a shooting spree and then kill myself so that people will want to stop owning guns"? Or, alternatively, "It' so easy to get guns, I have no choice but to use them against faculty and myself"?

    Was hisr motive violence in the media? Did he think, "Killing looks like so much fun on the screen, let's do it in real life and commit suicide afterwards"?

    Was it lack of school security? Did he think, "It's so easy to bring guns into school, so I'll use them on others and on myself"?

    Was his motive lack of exposure to religion? Did he think, "I don't go to church enough, so I'm compelled to murder teachers and myself"?

    Was the motive unfathomable because he was "unabalanced?" Did he think, "I'm so messed up, I think I'll go shoot a few teachers today?"

    Excuse me if these statements sound ridiculous, but it truly is absurd to attribute the massacres to these types of factors that our nation is currently targeting.

    What, then, is the real motive behind the massacre? It was stated clearly in Flores' suicide note. Even before the massacre, the picture was clearly emerging that the killer was social outcasts and victims of ridicule by peers and teachers. His motive is very clear and simple: to exact revenge for years of ridicule and rejection, and to make it stop once and for all. When someone plans to massacre his fellows, he is thinking, "You destroyed my life by ridiculing me and rejecting me. Now I am going to destroy your lives!" This is the true reason behind all the massacres!

    Read about bullying. In this social dynamic, there comes a point where the psychological damage is so great that there is no turning back the clock. There were warning signs, there was cries for help. No one listened. No one gave of themselves. And so there was a tragedy. I believe these tragedies can be prevented. But, it isn't by placing blame on any one source or thing. It's by looking at a culture that accepts and encourages "flaming," if you will, as a response.
  12. by   LasVegasRN
    Stargazer for President!!
  13. by   Q.
    I very much appreciate your response and I am glad you responded. Your opinion I always respect.

    While you described your nursing school experiences, I also had similar experiences, as did my husband. My husband has a BSN but is not a nurse. He decided against it his junior year in the program. Why? Psycho instructors, to name a few reasons. But the thing is I had a psycho instructor for chem, and there are psycho instructors in every program, not just nursing. I think to characterize this as a nursing school problem is vastly unfair and illegitimate. What did my husband do? Purposely excelled in the program with mininal effort and graduated magna cum laude, just to snub his nose at all those instructors. What did I do? Switched schools and went to a private college.

    Have I suffered depression as you described? Not related to nursing school, but certainly when I started as a new grad in L&D. I flunked boards and had to face the floor not as a GN as originally thought, but as a aide. I was oriented to post-partum and nothing else. The nurses were cruel, to say the least. They tried to make me sign a learning contract that stated I couldn't take vital signs correctly. I was humiliated. Did I shoot them? No.

    However, a friend of mine from college who was top in our class, double major in nursing and fine arts, committed suicide a year after graduation. Why? Depression. What fueled it? Part of it was the crappy way she was treated when SHE flunked boards on her unit. Was that the sole reason? My god no. She was depressed over multiple reasons: nursing being a small fraction of it.

    You see, there are differences in me, my friend, you, and Flores. While we all experienced what we considered rock bottom, none of us chose to kill innocent people. The worst is that my friend took her own life; as tragic as that is, I can respect that. She didn't kill her co-workers. So I am that far from Flores? You better believe I am. I think it takes a certain individual who is so distraught that he thinks of killing. And to push it further to kill not only yourself, but others?

    To me, after reading Youda's link, Flores sounds like that of the Columbine kids, only Flores was an adult. Are we saying he never escaped the immature and knee-jerk reactions of a child?

    I can see trying to take a negative experience and learn from it. We should all try to be nicer to one another, yes, and supportive, and offer help. But my philosophy is that, ultimately, you are responsible for you. Just like my father; we've helped him numerous times, but he still actively chooses to drink. I can't help him, and I shouldn't help him more than he wants to help himself. Those cases never work. Trust me.

    I am sadly disillusioned, however, how the blame is shifted to the victims. We will never hear they're version. We will never know the truth. Flores never wrote such a letter to the paper prior, or to an internet BB, to expose their "hateful" behavior. Therefore I find it hard to believe that it was entirely true. THIS being written from a man who, had already determined that he had absolutely no value for life of himself or 3 innocent, unarmed women with families. Someone who is on that train already, to me, loses credibility.
    Last edit by Susy K on Nov 1, '02