Shooting at nurse's college in Tuscon, AZ??

lisainaz · Oct 31, 2002

Originally posted by LasVegasRN
Lisa, I understand why you would not want to propagate this letter, but I've been keeping up with the story from the newspaper (just doing a search of major newspapers brought me to it). And I also understand by you living in the area why this would hit so close. Just letting you know I do empathize.

Maybe, hopefully, some good will come out of this and prevent further attacks from happening.

Thanks, I am so upset by the incident I was not thinking clearly. Do you all remember how on the 4th of July there was a shooting at Los Angeles International Airport? Well, I was there for that one, and I was at U of A for this shooting, and was stuck in both lock downs with SWAT teams, people screaming, etc. So between these two incidents I feel like I live in Israel or something.

The talk here in Tucson is about how a nursing professor filed a report with the police regarding Robert Flores (the shooter) back in April. Apparently he was talking about killing himself, and blowing up the university building before doing so. The police documented the report, and called him once, but did not reach him. The police did not do anything further. I think he should have been admitted on psych hold for danger to self and danger others back in April. I think he should have been ejected from the university for making threats. Then he could have been evaluted, and the immediate time period of his anger at being expelled from the university while under psych hold. And maybe he could have had an opportunity for help, if he would accept it. I do not know that this would have eliminated what happened, but I think it sure would have greatly reduced the chances of this occuring. Also, in Arizona it is quite easy to petition someone for danger to self/danger to others, in fact people are involunarily admitted all the time with far less evidence than in this case.

nightingale, RN · Oct 31, 2002

It is chilling to read.

For me, I can not muster anger.. only sadness... I do feel for this guy who had a dream that forces were working against.... Yeah, he was weird.. had different motives... He had some bad breaks...

And now.. I weep for the families of the victims....

nightingale, RN · Oct 31, 2002

It is chilling to read.

For me, I can not muster anger.. only sadness... I do feel for this guy who had a dream that forces were working against.... Yeah, he was weird.. had different motives... He had some bad breaks...

And now.. I weep for the families of the victims....

NCTraumaNurse · Oct 31, 2002

Originally posted by Roland
I hate to bring this back to guns but there are MANY cases where they are successfully used in a defensive fashion other than the one which is listed above. Indeed, the NRA lists SOME of them in their dual, monthly publications with citations of the local newspapers that ran the stories (obviously the NRA is biased that is why I mentioned that they CITE the local newspapers that ran the actual news stories). Unfortunately, these incidents seldom make it into the national media either because of bias or because they are not deemed to be sufficiently news-worthy. Now you can raise MANY good arguments for gun control (including that the bad they do is outweighed by these examples), however to say they are not used defensively is simply not intellectually honest.

I've often dreamed of creating a publication that did nothing BUT search local news for such instances of guns being used for defensive purposes, and then presenting those stories in narrative format. Maybe someone with more resources and time than myself could undertake such an effort. If nothing else a book on the subject would be fascinating (in lieu of a monthy periodical).

Where do I subscribe?????

NCTraumaNurse · Oct 31, 2002

Originally posted by Roland
I hate to bring this back to guns but there are MANY cases where they are successfully used in a defensive fashion other than the one which is listed above. Indeed, the NRA lists SOME of them in their dual, monthly publications with citations of the local newspapers that ran the stories (obviously the NRA is biased that is why I mentioned that they CITE the local newspapers that ran the actual news stories). Unfortunately, these incidents seldom make it into the national media either because of bias or because they are not deemed to be sufficiently news-worthy. Now you can raise MANY good arguments for gun control (including that the bad they do is outweighed by these examples), however to say they are not used defensively is simply not intellectually honest.

I've often dreamed of creating a publication that did nothing BUT search local news for such instances of guns being used for defensive purposes, and then presenting those stories in narrative format. Maybe someone with more resources and time than myself could undertake such an effort. If nothing else a book on the subject would be fascinating (in lieu of a monthy periodical).

Where do I subscribe?????

nurs4kids · Oct 31, 2002

RNCountry,

I haven't read his letter..yet..I will do that next. But I have to say that once again, you speak with such clarity, knowledge and understanding...I admire you. I ALWAYS enjoy your posts..thanks for a breath of open-minded air.

tracy

nurs4kids · Oct 31, 2002

RNCountry,

I haven't read his letter..yet..I will do that next. But I have to say that once again, you speak with such clarity, knowledge and understanding...I admire you. I ALWAYS enjoy your posts..thanks for a breath of open-minded air.

tracy

nightingale, RN · Oct 31, 2002

sorry I did not read it right away rncountry.. I was overwhelmed with his letter....

YOu are exactly right... we can not be continually treated as if we are machines... we need to time ot recharge and this guy was never given that...

Ofcourse I am not condoning what he did... but the way we are treated in nursing school by some of the instructors... and then when we do finally get out of school how "un - Ivory Tower" the real world of nursing is... who are "they" fooling anyway....

I hurt for all the victims and the families..... what a loss.. of those who were shot and of what the shooter could have given back to society... just as we all strugle with our demons.....

In peace,

B.

nightingale, RN · Oct 31, 2002

sorry I did not read it right away rncountry.. I was overwhelmed with his letter....

YOu are exactly right... we can not be continually treated as if we are machines... we need to time ot recharge and this guy was never given that...

Ofcourse I am not condoning what he did... but the way we are treated in nursing school by some of the instructors... and then when we do finally get out of school how "un - Ivory Tower" the real world of nursing is... who are "they" fooling anyway....

I hurt for all the victims and the families..... what a loss.. of those who were shot and of what the shooter could have given back to society... just as we all strugle with our demons.....

In peace,

B.

nurs4kids · Oct 31, 2002

now I've read the letter..

sad..very sad. There is no excuse for what he did, but through his message, I understand his pain. I agree with him and RN country..it IS harder for a male student...unless, that is, he takes on the butt-kissing role..or the typical female submissive personality..then he is usually the instructor's "pet".

I have a coworker..male and yes, a little "different". Smart as a whip and a dang good nurse. He's within two months of graduating with his masters..nurse practitioner. The dean called him into her office and "advised" him that he should change programs..that he's not "fit" for this field (he has a 3.5gpa). They have nothing on him other than the fact that he's outspoken "disrespectful"..in other words, he's not kissing their orifices, imho.

Right now, I'm precepting a male student. Again, smart..assertive, will be an awesome nurse. He, too, has had the same type conflicts with the nursing program..same school as my coworker. I have no doubt it's harder for male students because men are not accustomed to being submissive...to being "beat down".

As I read this guy's letter, I could remember incidents from my days in the nursing program. I remember staying up until 4am doing care plans only to arrive at clinicals at 6:30am to have a cocky instructor tear them apart..with poor explanations as to what was wrong. We've all been told you can't work a job and safely or effectively do nursing school. Everyone isn't born with a silver spoon in their mouth..most people HAVE to work while attending nursing school..i sure did. I remember having to stand throughout a clinical and in report..even if there were ten vacant chairs.."because the instructor said so". Three weeks prior to graduation, I came down w/ conjunctivitis (probably d/t fatigue)..missed a clinical, had a doctor's excuse. The instructor told me I would not be allowed to make up the clinical..ie; i would not graduate. I went to the dean of the school and was able to make it up, but that was senseless stress. There is absolutely no logical reasoning to the kind of stress that is placed upon nursing students. Stress decreases cognition..it's a viscious cycle.

I don't like what this man did..my heart goes out to the victims and their families..my heart also goes out to this man and his family.

However, I do think in this tragedy, he has left us an opportunity..

the opportunity to gain more control of our profession, the opportunity for us to publicize our concerns, needs, etc..

he opened the can of worms...

we can either sit back and call him crazy..pass him off as an isolated nutcase..or we can say, "what he did is inexcusable, but not incomprehensible under the circumstances..."

now i'll join helen and don my flame-proof suit...

nurs4kids · Oct 31, 2002

now I've read the letter..

sad..very sad. There is no excuse for what he did, but through his message, I understand his pain. I agree with him and RN country..it IS harder for a male student...unless, that is, he takes on the butt-kissing role..or the typical female submissive personality..then he is usually the instructor's "pet".

I have a coworker..male and yes, a little "different". Smart as a whip and a dang good nurse. He's within two months of graduating with his masters..nurse practitioner. The dean called him into her office and "advised" him that he should change programs..that he's not "fit" for this field (he has a 3.5gpa). They have nothing on him other than the fact that he's outspoken "disrespectful"..in other words, he's not kissing their orifices, imho.

Right now, I'm precepting a male student. Again, smart..assertive, will be an awesome nurse. He, too, has had the same type conflicts with the nursing program..same school as my coworker. I have no doubt it's harder for male students because men are not accustomed to being submissive...to being "beat down".

As I read this guy's letter, I could remember incidents from my days in the nursing program. I remember staying up until 4am doing care plans only to arrive at clinicals at 6:30am to have a cocky instructor tear them apart..with poor explanations as to what was wrong. We've all been told you can't work a job and safely or effectively do nursing school. Everyone isn't born with a silver spoon in their mouth..most people HAVE to work while attending nursing school..i sure did. I remember having to stand throughout a clinical and in report..even if there were ten vacant chairs.."because the instructor said so". Three weeks prior to graduation, I came down w/ conjunctivitis (probably d/t fatigue)..missed a clinical, had a doctor's excuse. The instructor told me I would not be allowed to make up the clinical..ie; i would not graduate. I went to the dean of the school and was able to make it up, but that was senseless stress. There is absolutely no logical reasoning to the kind of stress that is placed upon nursing students. Stress decreases cognition..it's a viscious cycle.

I don't like what this man did..my heart goes out to the victims and their families..my heart also goes out to this man and his family.

However, I do think in this tragedy, he has left us an opportunity..

the opportunity to gain more control of our profession, the opportunity for us to publicize our concerns, needs, etc..

he opened the can of worms...

we can either sit back and call him crazy..pass him off as an isolated nutcase..or we can say, "what he did is inexcusable, but not incomprehensible under the circumstances..."

now i'll join helen and don my flame-proof suit...

Roland · Oct 31, 2002

1. There is NO excuse for premeditated murder (and he makes it very clear that he thought long and hard about the deed). Furthermore, no victim of that crime deserves such treatment no matter what their offence.

2. That said one cannot but conclude (assuming his account portrays an even remotely accurate portrayal of the actual facts something very much in question) that this guy was treated in a very unfair manner. Specifically, it seems as if he was an agressive student who is sometimes seen as a "know it all" (not unlike myself I too sometimes ask alot of questions in class the way I see it I'm paying a great deal of money for these people to teach me). His problems seemed to rapidly mount AFTER he complained to the Dean of students about being ignored in class when he would ask questions. From his perspective this complaint SEALED his fate within the nursing program. I would be quicker to discount this version of events if so many people on this site had not cautioned ME to be careful to avoid the same fate (that is to say being perceived as a "know it all").

3. In addition it seems that a "confluence" of factors acted to exponentially increase his distress making him percieve his situation as hopeless. These were primarily:

a. The relative "iron clad" nature of student loan repayment (unlike other debts it usually cannot be written off in bankruptcy no matter how bad your economic circumstances). Thus our villian felt that if he could not complete school he would have to pay his student loan debt (in addition to his other expenses such as child support) or face collection actions including revocation of his LPN license.

b. The relative iron clad nature of child support payments seemed to be another motif in his dispair. The killer felt that if he was kicked out of school that he wouldn't be able to continue child support payments espcially in combination with student loan payments. Certainly not without his LPN license.

c. The perpetraitor felt that he had been railroaded out of the program. He describes an incident where the instructor "stepped out of the room to say hi to a co-worker" while he was administering meds to patient. He was disciplined for this violation. Another incident involved a mandated care plan due the next day with part of the requisite material having to be downloaded from a computer. Despite his experienceing technical difficulties and asking for help, his paper was late and the tardiness was NOT excused.

d. The killer also had a plethora of health problems the most severe involving dental problems, and possible Gulf War related back injuries. These were exasperated by his working a full time job (out of necessity) while in nursing school.

Again, this guy is a murderer and deserves his fate (many believe that it will be eternal damnation although thats for God to decide). No one can justify murder. However, one cannot help but feel that a little more simple, and common sense kindness on the part of the institution MAY have averted this trajedy. I was struck by the dichotomy of the thread which described someone who had to work with a now accused terrorist who seemed impervious to being fired no matter how extreme his actions (again assuming the Flores letter remotely represents the true facts of the case). In this case it seems we had someone who was trying his best of above average intelligence and who had proven to be a good LPN, who was still insufficent to pass the program.

The theme which seemed to permeate the letter was that when "the world" gets you down it does so in spades.

Michigan Nurse asked about the NRA publications. I let my membership laspe last year (I'm a BSN student and poor!) but I think they are called American Handgunner, and American Rifleman. Your NRA membership comes with a choice of ONE of the two publications. It seems if I remember correctly that the accounts of guns being used in self defense were within the first five pages of both publications.