Shabbos/Religious Observances

[texasmommy]

As I begin the applications process for nursing schools, I have one huuuuge concern - my religious obligations. I am not permitted to work/attend school, etc. from sunset Friday nights until an hour past sunset on Saturday nights because of the Jewish sabbath. I've heard that a lot of programs have 12hr clinicals on Saturdays...yikes! Has anyone "worked it out" with similar obligations?

[lamazeteacher]

Forced female circumcision.

Stoning of one's neighbors for working on the Sabbath.

Beating or killing your kids is okay if god tells you to do it.

It's okay to own slaves along as they are from a neighboring country.

Sadness is d/t thetan particles left over when Xenu killed innocent people 65 million years ago.

I was indoctrinated into the PC culture long ago, and one of the sacred mantras is that all religious / culture beliefs are equally valid and good people would never criticise another's beliefs.

Sorry, but there are too many examples in the world of why this mantra needs to fade away into obscurity.

Dear Josh:

Polite people don't criticise others' beliefs. What has the PC got to do with that? Taking away religious beliefs, would remove many peoples' security.

Culture and religion are not the same. Religion can create a culture of people who think similarly. Culture, according to the Random House Dictionary, is "a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period" and "the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to the next" - like art .

I've never read anything that described the practice of circumcising females as set by religious beliefs - rather it's a nation's way of controlling women. It's the ritual of a culture. Remember the woman (I can't think of her name now) who insisted upon having that procedure done here before she could return and face the women in her country again? I cry when I think of her......

Male circumcision, however, is part of Jewish ritual based on hygienic beliefs. "Smegma", that creamy substance that accumulates behind the foreskin, was thought (and some medical experts here still think) to have causal elements of disease. Uncircumcised men in our culture think their sensations while having intercourse are greater than those of circumcised men - but how to measure that?

There is a "Book of Laws" for Jews that is observed most by orthodoxy, that involves many hygienic aspects of life, as well as manners, responsibilities, and most of the things of which life is composed. It's the guiding force behind the "Micvah", a ceremonial pool of water used to cleanse women after their menstrual periods (but they must thoroughly shower before going into that pool). Until her visit there, a woman is considered "unclean" from the first day of each period, and must sleep in a room that she doesn't share with her husband, hence Anita Diamond's book "Red Tent". It's also a social happening for women, who don't seem to think being unclean is a "putdown". It sure advertises who's pregnant!

Faye Kellerman writes mysteries in which she describes orthodox means of observing Judaism. I love reading them, because she makes it seem so doable. Her husband Jonathon Kellerman is a psychologist who writes psychological thrillers. I'm sure that they don't write on Shabbos.

I'd hate to think of any society without the wholeness and bonding that religion creates. Granted, terrible things have been done in the name of religion (e.g. the inquisition and Nazi concentration camps, wars, annihilation), and power has been the cause of that. Let's hope instead that misuse of power will "fade into oblivion".

If power was perceived as a gift granted for good deeds, and removed peacefully, with self recognition if it was abused, harmony would reign among those of all beliefs.:balloons:

[sharona97, BSN, RN]

after reading this thread, i watched my favorite movie, "fiddler on the roof".

and now i'm singing (very, very loud, throughout the house), ":Melody:to life! to life! l'achaim (sp)...l'achaim, l'achaim, to life! life has a way of...:Melody:"

i don't mind sharing w/you:

if i was ever to pursue any one religion, it would definitely be Judaism.

just from my upbringing, i have embraced it to be one of the most honorable ways of living.

my very, very, very, VERY orthodox cousin still calls me, insisting that i am a Jew, whether i accept or not, because "that is who you are".

after yrs of her telling me this, i'm starting to appreciate what she means.

she's married to a Rabbi...the kind that wears the long beard and the hat.

i want to watch "fiddler" again.

thanks for letting me swoon. :balloons:

leslie

It's nice to see you so happy Leslie. Something to relish in for yourself and your family.

[sharona97, BSN, RN]

I just finished reading every post on this wonderful thread and want to thank all for the videos, teachings,explanations and inspirations each has had or thought.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I didn't understand all the "protocols" (for lack of a better or correct word) or even understand the reasons for these at times.

All I knew and felt was in my heart and soul I had the most powerful feeling for helping others and caring about others, wether they were "sinners" or not. I felt loved and trusted in my being and behaved and prayed on a one to one basis with one who I believed led me to this very private and personal place inside of me.

I have an even greater conviction to continue this through prayer and practice. I believe in the virtues I have learned through my faith and I practice the best I can to the beautitides I also learned by reading the bible.

I have come to believe it is important to try to understand all handed to me ,through good, bad,or evil. I have also believed I have sinned by judging others and have said many prayers for forgiveness.

Isn't it all about love anyway? To have the desire to care for our sick and needy patients and felllow humans in the best way we know how seems to me to be the important task at hand no matter how it is done. As long as it woks and keeps us alive with the spirit of goodness.

Thank you to the OP for starting this thread that has enlightened me and given me faith again in our diverse beliefs, we truly do care about one another. It's a beautiful thing.

Sharona

[Chloe'sinNYNow]

Male circumcision, however, is part of Jewish ritual based on hygienic beliefs. "Smegma", that creamy substance that accumulates behind the foreskin, was thought (and some medical experts here still think) to have causal elements of disease. Uncircumcised men in our culture think their sensations while having intercourse are greater than those of circumcised men - but how to measure that?

There is a "Book of Laws" for Jews that is observed most by orthodoxy, that involves many hygienic aspects of life, as well as manners, responsibilities, and most of the things of which life is composed. It's the guiding force behind the "Micvah", a ceremonial pool of water used to cleanse women after their menstrual periods (but they must thoroughly shower before going into that pool). Until her visit there, a woman is considered "unclean" from the first day of each period, and must sleep in a room that she doesn't share with her husband, hence Anita Diamond's book "Red Tent". It's also a social happening for women, who don't seem to think being unclean is a "putdown". It sure advertises who's pregnant!

Faye Kellerman writes mysteries in which she describes orthodox means of observing Judaism. I love reading them, because she makes it seem so doable. QUOTE]

So sorry to interject after reading the wonderful way you approach a sensitive topic, but Male circumcision in Judaism is NOT based on hygiene. This is a huge major misconception that bears explanation because of the now bigger controversy over the whole hygiene to cirucumcise or not to circumcise debate.

In Judaism, male circumcision is the mitzvah performed on all male babies on their 8th day of life as Abraham made his covenant to G-d. Today, by performing the act circumcision, Jews perpetuate the covenant and make their children a part of that eternal promise. (this link puts it into perspective better than I can http://www.aish.com/literacy/ It's simple to understand, yet detailed enough for our scientific nursing minds to grasp)

I read the Red Tent years ago. Please remember, it is fiction.

The Mikvah is a hugely revered and important ceremonial sitethat is for more than just "cleaning" a woman after she's done menstruating.

Per http://www.essene.com/B'nai-Amen/MysticalImmersion.htm a most intriguing and fascinating and according to my own Judaic studies, a quite accurate account of Mikvahs. It speaks in a free flowing (couldn't resist!) explanation, using citations from scriptures, hx, and comparative religions. It's very well written and can speak much more profoundly than I. But to site from it on 2 counts mentioned herein:

1) "The building of the mikveh was so important in ancient times it was said to take precedence over the construction of a synagogue."

2) "According to non-Essene Jewish law there are three basic areas where immersion in the mikveh is required"...(and I paraphrase here)...

a) immersion required for when both men and women convert to Judaism

b) immersion required after a woman has her monthly period

c) immersion required required for pots and eating utensils manufactured by a non-Jew

And additionally:

"It is customary to be immersed in the mikveh before Yom Kippur as a sign of purity and repentance and before the Sabbath in order to sensitize oneself to the holiness of the day. "

Pretty cool stuff, huh?

Chloe (Jewish and still learning after all these years)

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

By the way, in Toronto, the official "blue nose" place in Canada, Jews were allowed to sell bagels in the downtown Jewish area on Sunday mornings in the 1940s, (before commerce was allowed 7 days a week) They didn't work Saturdays, so it was an effort to be fair.

New York always permitted Jewish shops to be open on Sunday despite the blue laws.

[eltrip]

Fabulous discussion! I'm just chiming in here as one with a Jewish family, my mother's side. The most I learned about Judiasm growing up was learning about Hanukah...which I now celebrate with my children.

Fiddler on the Roof provided me with the visual for why my great-great grandparents left Romania& Poland for life in Brooklyn. Helped me to understand why my Grandpa felt that converting to Christianity would be a betrayal of all his forefathers had endured for their faith.

Thanks one & all!

[texasmommy]

Just FYI - women don't have to sleep in a separate room when they are niddah (bleeding/waiting for mikvah night).

[Josh L.Ac.]

Dear Josh:

Polite people don't criticise others' beliefs.

The obvious reply would have to be "why?"

I understand the need on a message board like this to force people to be polite to each other, but in the real world, why can't we point out the obvious rational flaws of certain beliefs?

If someone makes a ridiculous statement during a debate, it is acceptable to counter the claim by pointing out the logical inconstancies of the statement. But once that person claims that their statement is based on religious belief, for some reason it is no longer polite to point out the error in the statement.

Why does the title of "religious and/or cultural belief" somehow make a statement unable to be analyzed?

I'd hate to think of any society without the wholeness and bonding that religion creates.

So would it be impossible for a society to have wholeness and bonding without religion? To be honest, I would be afraid to live in a society where the fear and/or belief of god is required for people to feel whole and bond with each other.

This is an extension of the "without god people would commit evil deeds" rebuttal, which basically goes like this:

Statement: "Without god, people would commit evil deeds. Thus, god is necessary for to keep people good and to prevent them from killing, robbing, and raping each other. With god, people in a community get along and are at peace."

Rebuttal question: "So without god, you would kill, rape, and steal from your neighbor?"

Obvious reply: "Of course not."

Final rebuttal: "So why is belief in god still necessary to keep the peace?"

Still great discussion, BTW.

[Josh L.Ac.]

Actually Josh, this is a perfect example of why fundamentalist extremism needs to fade away.

Many Eastern religions are symbolic, not literal. For example "an eye for an eye" is not what many think as being vengeance sought for poking out an enemy's eye, but a commercial monetary trade. I'll give you this for that, but not actual physical act of battery.

There's a whole system of trade that spoke in different terms than we understand it. One more reason for the diverse branches seen in Judaisim for example. The belief systems of how to interpret the testament. Which is also reasoning for why some keep kosher and some don't.

One cannot blasphemize (is this a word?) all religions for one's own lack of understanding. That leads to bigger and scarier things.

I try to look at it this way...it's called "faith" for a reason. If I believe so deeply about something, it is because I have faith in it.

Then again, I don' t drive my faith around on my bumper, nor shove it in anyone's face or bring it into the workplace or anywhere I don' t think it belongs. It is what moves me; something else is bound to move someone else. I can respect that.

Live and let live. There's a mantra for us. I think Lucy in The Peanuts used to espouse it.

Chloe

That was a great reply, but I do have to ask the question:

Why would you need to believe in something so deeply, possibly in contrast to logic and current evidence, to the point where faith is required?

[Chloe'sinNYNow]

That was a great reply, but I do have to ask the question:

Why would you need to believe in something so deeply, possibly in contrast to logic and current evidence, to the point where faith is required?

Whose logic Josh? Yours?

And "evidence to the contrary" as the saying goes, isn't medicine still in its own infancy? It's being advanced daily, and it's still debated, tested, researched and practiced.

I believe that to hold deeply to my own faith is my business, in my practice that does no harm, and I believe in it for myself. I owe you no explanation.

Respectfully,

Chloe

[Josh L.Ac.]

Whose logic Josh? Yours?

And "evidence to the contrary" as the saying goes, isn't medicine still in its own infancy? It's being advanced daily, and it's still debated, tested, researched and practiced.

I believe that to hold deeply to my own faith is my business, in my practice that does no harm, and I believe in it for myself. I owe you no explanation.

Respectfully,

Chloe

That's my point. With logic, all those involved can debate and evaluate the merits of each side. But with "faith", as you just said, you owe no explanation. End of conversation.

So is religion / faith / belief less about right and wrong, which should be debated, and more about privacy, which probably shouldn't?

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Moderator Note: I think there is a good discussion going on (without Terms of Service Violations) and I encourage you to continue to be respectful of all opinions, regardless of whether or not it's popular, while you are discussing this topic and challenging each other. Thanks!