Professionalism and Credentials - page 3
OK, just some thoughts here so early in the morning (after work...) I've been thinking on how we can improve the image of nursing and a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, what do people... Read More
Nov 10, '01Yes, ENCOURAGE is what i meant. Thank you for correcting my misspelling, I just hope that the correction was not made out of spite, as it is not typical of you to post spitefully.
Matt is also an ADN I believe. Look at the first post in the thread.
Don't you think that we will have separatism as long as there are multiple ways to get to the same place? There are ALWAYS going to be arguements about which prepares one better. By giving different classifications we would eliminate this.
Nov 10, '01Hmmm. I don't even know where to begin. So many good points here.
I think I will start with the LPN thing. Started as CNA, then LPN, went back to school for ADN, next step will be BSN. Gotta take those "baby steps. I have been hearing the LPN phase out thing for years, & I believe that one has been recycled for decades.
I don't think that different NCLEX tests would really work, and possibly cause more rifts in an already troubled area of health care.
I think it would be helpful for ALL nurses to start as CNA's and progress through the ranks to LPN, RN, etc. Maybe have a minimum requirement for the time spent at each level, 6 mos CNA, then 1 yr as LPN, 2yrs as RN and so on. I know it's wishful thinking, but maybe something like this would help promote the spirit of nursing & help us all remember why we chose this profession in the first place.
Nov 10, '01There have been other threads of this nature....and different things have been said. For instance, I can recall one posting that stated a BSN instructor was advising her students that they were better prepared than students from an ADN or diploma program. I think this separatism is a reflection, sometimes, of what students may be told when it comes to a description of all the degree options......by their instructors. Other times, it could be something else...I don't know.
I had no idea how strongly some felt about BSN as opposed to ADN, or diploma, before I started coming to this board. I don't see, or feel, the same attitudes at my job....thank goodness. All are encouraging about moving forward w/my education if I choose to do so. They don't look at my education background as something that is holding back the profession from being taken seriously. They are glad that I am one of them....an RN that will do her job to the best of her ability and will help them out if they need it. As I've stated on previous postings, my hospital does not discriminate....there is no differential for BSN.
Brandy, I was not being spiteful....merely making a point, as others do on this board. If a post is to be made about higher education...cross those T's and dot those I's. Show us what mom and dad are paying for, little buddy!
Again ladies, research your statistics in regards to the future of the nursing shortage. The more options that are available to future nurses, the better.
Nov 10, '01LOL VERY true. Unfortunatelyis not my forte, and I am EXTREMELY glad that my 3rd grade spelling test scores did not transfer to my college GPA, or I would not be here
if mom and dad were paying for college, I might not look at my education as such an investment Its all out of my pocket (actually, its out of my future pockets, since its all loans with sky high interests rates They DO pay my car insurance, and I am very thankful for that
Nov 10, '01Brandy,
You did not step on my toes nor were my comment meant to be a personal attack.
We do need to find a way to end the bickering about BSN vs ADN vs diploma RNs. It always seems to come down to 2 things. One is actual nursing knowledge and the other is clinical experience. A 2-tier system of N-CLEX testing would put a stop to one of these. If a diploma or ADN nurse feels they have as much knowledge as a BSN, then they would have a way to prove it. The same can be said about BSN who feel their nursing knowledge base is superior. It is a win-win situation and a way to determine who should be rewarded in the long run for higher education directly related to nursing knowledge.
I do not think you find too many nurses who are actually opposed to obtaining more knowledge in general. In fact, I think you will be hard pressed to find an experienced nurse who will not say they are still learning something new all the time. It is just a matter of what one person finds or chooses to be interested in. I have other interests outside of nursing. I call them hobbies. Many of them do come in handy as a topic of conversation when I am doing a physical assessment. I can not honestly say that any of them have actually made me a better nurse though or a better person.
I do not speak Spanish nor am I interested in studying Spanish. I can see how Spanish would come in handy at times, but the same can be said for French, German, and even sign language as well as a dozen other languages. So where do we stop. I agree more knowledge is a marvelous thing, but there are many subjects that would not in any way make me a better nurse. Sociology was a prerequisite for my nursing program and in some ways it was enlightening.
Yes there are major differences between one college or program to the next. One would think that all nurses would be trained in almost a cookie cutter fashion, but they are not. This is part of the argument that always comes up with this discussion. I used to resent having to take those idiotic tests given by most hospitals when you apply for a position. My contention was that I was a licensed RN and as such I had already proven my body of knowledge. Then one day I while talking to another RN I found out why the hospitals insisted on the testing. Her program was no where as intense as mine in both educational and clinical requirements. This should not at all be the case. When a licensed RN applies for a job, then the basics of nursing knowledge should be automatically accepted. Right now this is not possible.
As a point of discussion, higher education in and of it's self is not the only answer to the professions problems. If higher education were the sole problem then NPs would still not lag behind PAs in many of the areas including salary.
Nov 10, '01What is the difference in salary between a PA and an NP? We dont have any PAs here (no PA programs in this part of the state)?
I didnt take your comment as a personal attack I just wanted to stay on a friendly basis, while still debating a very important issue
Nov 10, '01I stayed away from this thread because of the topic. I figured the conversation would, as usual, turn into a LPN vs ADN vs RN battle. Yaaaaaaawn.
As an ADN, first let me say as I've said before, I have NO problem with a BSN making more than me IF they are doing the same job without having to LEAN on me. With that, I mean, I don't see a new grad BSN coming in making more than me when she/he is constantly dependant on my experience and knowledge (this is happening to me right now). If we're doing the same job and you have more education, then by all means, give you the extra quarter..it's no sweat off my back.
The second NCLEX is a ridiculous proposal. Hmmmmm, I know nothing but peds, your knowledge is in psychology. So, we both take the second NCLEX and I get one full of peds questions, you get one full of pharmacology. I pass, you fail. What was proven there? nada. Doesn't mean I'm a better nurse, just a bit luckier on the day of testing.
Credentialing has very little to do with professional appearance. Until we unite, quit the bickering over who has the bigger, better, longer letters behind the name, we'll just keep dragging ourselves down. The general public does not care about credentials. They want a nurse. They want someone to compentently care for them and their loved ones. With the shortage, we don't have to establish a minimum level of education. We have to establish unity, GUTS and COURAGE. We have to quit fighting like cats and start ACTING like professionals. We have to stand up for what we deserve, plain and simple. Then again, we could just keep blaming ADN's for dragging a profession down.
I'm like KC, here there is no difference between BSN & ADN. As for pay, we all start out with equal pay and then have the opportunity to advance by experience and education. My employer doesn't even allow credentials on name badges. Perhaps this is why it's not an issue here, they just don't differentiate between the two. They do, however, recognize excellence..regardless of degree/diploma. My coworkers never even discuss this issue, the only way we know who holds what is because we discuss college and know which is 4yr vs 2 yr.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous DURING THE LARGEST NURSING SHORTAGE IN HISTORY to even talk of raising the educational level minimum to BSN. We can't recruit enough people as it is, then you want to isolate thousands more???? I guess in my pathetic, ASN education, I wasn't taught the logic that goes into that proposal.
As soon as the minimum level is raised to BSN, you BSN's better watch out...the MSN's will be raising the level over you
Every nurse should be required to be a CNA, LPN..etc for a year prior to advancing??? Hell, I started out in Central Supply, I kinda like your idea... EXCEPT I think we should all just start out in housekeeping...after all, then we'd appreciate everything ALL the ancillary people do <note sarcasm>. ***NO ONE CAME INTO THIS PROFESSION TO DEDICATE THEIR LIFE TO POVERTY AND OVERTIME*** so bleeding hearts, please quit reminding me why I chose this profession. I chose this career because I like helping people and I thought nursing was a profession. one out of two ain't bad Until we behave professionally, we will not be treated as professionals...even if we raise the educational minimum to the level of MD.
off my soapbox
Nov 10, '01Hey nurses!
Not trying to step on any toes......
I think the original poster asked about professionalism, education and credentials. Not who or what makes a better nurse. I would love to here some more thoughts as it relates to our profession.
Canadian nurse: Where I work we are required to take classes in our specialty called "core curriclum" offered by the hospital itself (free). However, it only spends two days on one broad topic ( for oncology we have 5 broad topics total). I love the classes and feel they have increased my oncology nursing knowledge alot, thus improving my pt education abilities and prioritizing care. I have a more indepth understanding of the "how's and why's" of oncology care now. But, I would really love if the hopsital would pay for me to take college classes on these topics that goes much more in-depth and helps prepare me for my OCN exam.
Knowledge is power!
Nov 10, '01I am doing a term paper on NP's and found Brandy's comments interesting. So I thought that I would make some comments (facts) about NP's and their education.
First, most NP's are CERTIFIED through a MSN program. They have a separate board to sit for that is designed by the American College of Nurse Practitioners. The first NP program was started in 1965 at the University of Colorado (against physician's wishes). This was after thousands of studies looking at quality of care, patient acceptance, patient satisfaction and cost-effectiveness of NP's were conducted. The education process for NP's has become more standardized over the years and the move to require a master's degree for entry level practice has taken a long time. The last to make this change was the Women's health NP and the last funding for women's health certificate prams under Title X ends in 2004. By 2007 all women's health NP's will need a master's degree to sit for the national women's health certification examination.
In 1992 (when the nation was discussing healthcare reform under the Clinton Administration) NP's moved to develop greater organizational cooperation because they thought that they would be totally left out of any new reform due to not being unified with a national presence in Washington, DC. There was a national summit of NPs and a National NP Coalition was created. This coalition was formalized into a permanent political arm for NP's which became the American College of Nurse Practitioners.
Now, so you don't get totally bored reading about NP's here's a little info about salaries. In 1997 the average salary was $52,532 and in 1999 it was $58,391. And (go figure) allot of the salaries are still gender specific. For instance in 1999 the female NP's salary averaged $58,120 and the male NP's salary averaged $62,680.
These are just some of the facts that I uncovered when I was doing research for this paper.
So YES, furthering your education is important and YES there should be a difference in salary.
Perhaps nurses that are NOT NP's should take a lesson and organize like the nurses with more education did!!!
Nov 10, '01A few random and scattered thoughts on this thread.
Education is only useful if it is applied. Not everyone with education applies that knowledge.Of course you have to obtain that education before you can apply it
The application and utilization of Knowledge/education has been equated with power. Change can not be obtained or effected without power. Does anyone believe that the Nursing Profession and our health care system doesn't need change?
Encourage education at all levels, ecourage continuing education, and encourage the raising of education standards for all.
Nov 10, '01Key word there Julie is free. If the hospital paid for it I wouldn't have such a problem with it. My issue is that I am required to take at least nine courses which cost between 300 and 600$, not to mention the lost wages that come from doing a 200 hour practicum!
Nov 10, '01I agree wholeheartdly with nurse4kids, well said. and I think the idea of no creditientials (sp) on name tag is great!!! Unless you're going into mgmt it shouldn't matter on bit. It only further confuses the pts and Lord knows we don't need that.
Nov 10, '01First of all, let me say that I know nothing about the diploma programs and the only contact I've had with diploma nurses were in seasoned, experienced nurses, so I won't be commenting on the diploma programs.
I think CareerRN made a good point by stating that not all colleges and universities are the same. I'm sure they all abide by the same rules regarding clinical and lecture hours, but we all know that these hours can vary as far as the quality.
I have a BSN and I feel my nursing program was excellent. I felt well-prepared for my new career. That may not be because it was a BSN program so much as it was a high-quality program. If I didn't realize that fact, I could come on this BB and insist that BSN's were better.
There are several community colleges that offer ADN's around my area. There are a few that are, in my opinion, lower quality than my program. I can say that because I went to one of these community colleges for most of my prerequisites and the whole school is lower in quality. If I were an experienced nurse in one of the local hospitals, I think I might see a difference in the quality and ability of students from that school and my school. Would I conclude that it was due to the students being BSN vs. ADN? Maybe-- depends what MY degree is and what I know about the local colleges. But let me also say that one of the community colleges here is known for their high-quality nursing program and students. ADN.
Keeping this in mind, I did not agree with the statement that "hospitals would rather hire an ADN vs. a BSN" that was made several posts ago. It's obviously generalizing. Also, I don't quite agree that a BSN is merely more humanities classes. There was a whole handful of nursing classes I took as a BSN that the ADN's didn't have to take. Maybe not a lot more, but not just humanities classes. I don't like the scoffing attitude behind that. I've seen BSN/ADN debates on this BB before and have seen several posters comment on there being more theory with a BSN. ...blah blah etc. I'm not going down that road.
From what I understand, many of the posters giving comments regarding the BSN/ADN debate are mostly speaking of the students and new grads. It seems that the experienced nurses are judged by experience rather than degree. I don't hear about the 20 year veteran BSN vs. the 20 year veteran ADN debating who knows more, etc.
We must realize that with the X number of nursing schools out there, the students and new grads will all vary in their ability and maybe it's not just the degree so much as the school.
The debate goes on.