how do we change nurses opinions on male nurses? - page 7
i guess this kinda goes along with my other post. I our discussion the topic came up that some older nurses do not seem to believe males should or can be nurses. especially in the ob areas. how could... Read More
Dec 7, '03Joined: Sep '01; Posts: 16,606; Likes: 680Just my two cents on the topic of male nurses.
I have never had a problem working with a male nurse. I enjoy and always have enjoyed working with male nurses. All the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I have had male nurses take care of me when I was the patient, and they did a superb job.
It is FEmale nurses who "catfight" all the time, and argue over trivial things in the work place.
I have worked with female nurses that are the epitome of sainthood, but I've worked with more female nurses who should be on hormone therapy or something because they always come to work PMSing.
Dec 7, '03Occupation: CCU NRS Joined: May '01; Posts: 1,976; Likes: 89Originally posted by shodobe
But don't think they are all doing it for some so-called "calling". Job security has always been an attraction because they won't have to worry about being laid off somewhere.
I agree that not all nurses (male or female) are called to be nurses. What I took issue with was Passing Thur's comment that men aren't "called to nurse sick people but because the money was finally significant" I do not feel that mass generalizations serve to offer enough scope to an issue.
also by Passing Thru "Men just have to show they care and can do the job and want to be team members. It isn't inherent that men are "nurturer's"
There are reasons why nursing/nurturing was a female job for so long."
While I was called to nurse sick people I was also intelligent enough to look at all sides of the issue and understood that Job security and rate of pay were certainly factors. Although I have not done so yet I would also like to go on a mission at some point and volunteer time to help those less able to recieve medical care. Several of the nurses I work with do this twice a year and they seem get something very great from the experience some sense of what altruism must really be.
Dec 7, '03Occupation: RN in L&D Joined: Nov '01; Posts: 720; Likes: 185I think posts like this go a long way in showing how silly the arguments against men in nursing are.
Some few people will read the silly (yes I said silly) arguments and believe that men cannot be as caring or dedicated as women in nursing.
ie.. "they are in it for the trillions and billions of $$$$$ nurses make" Please! (eye roll) ,
or how about "they are just using it as a spring board!" bah,
or the convincing argument that we are all lazy and choose to work nights (obviously posed by a day nurse).
for a few these arguments fuel the fire and convince them male nurse are evil incarnate out for greed and gain.
But for the rest of us, they are a marvelous examples of how far people will go to justify there prejudices.
For me its a reminder that there are no good arguments to discount men as nurses. These otherwise intelligent people really don't understand there own dislike of male nurses and therefore convince them selves that these SILLY explanations justify that dislike. kind of sad if you think about it.
Dec 7, '03Occupation: OR Staff Specialty: O.R., ED, M/S ; From: US ; Joined: Aug '00; Posts: 1,295; Likes: 364CCUNrs, I agree with you. I wasn't called to do this type of work, but I was interested in helping people. I couldn't do it as a policeman, because my eyes were to bad, so I chose the medical field. I didn't have the grades for med school and did not want to spend my whole life as a Paramedic. Paramedics were just coming into the field and I personally did not think they would last! I find nursing very easy and with little stress. You define stress as you take it. What most people find stressful I probably wouldn't and what I find stressful most people would probably slit their wrists! But seriously now, the only problem I find with men in nursing is they are too focused on only a few areas of nursing. Most of them go either into the ED, OR and ICCU. I find most guys want to work in areas that have a lot of action. I worked both the ED and MS before deciding on the OR and it was very helpful. I am seeing more and more guys going to Peds, MS and other traditional female dominated areas. I am not sure if there is a jealously issue or not because of this. In my hospital I think I have the longest tenure of any male nurse, 27 years. I find it hard to believe I have been doing this so long. I suddenly feel tired! Mike
Dec 7, '03Occupation: LPN Joined: Jul '03; Posts: 350; Likes: 16Maybe we here on this board can be the start of changing this entire attitude
How about if each of us refuse to utter the words "male nurse" or "female nurse" ever again?
The word "Nurse" in and of itself works for me
Dec 7, '03Occupation: ED staff nurse From: US ; Joined: Nov '01; Posts: 1,150; Likes: 232I work with a lot of guys who are nurses. I like working with men, I think that together we make it better for the patient. I am not saying that an all woman team is not good, it's just like I said in another thread, our brains work differently and sometimes I see something they don't or the guys will pick up something the women don't. Most of the men I've worked with are pretty task oriented which is a good thing for the ED, we like to move the patients so if someone taking care of them gets the orders done quickly it's better for all concerned. I am not saying guys are unemotional but if they lack anything as a nurse it might be that. Women's intuition is no falacy, we often pick up on more emotional clues than men do and as women and most of us as moms we are more apt to offer emotional support. It's also nice to me to have men as equals at work rather than just having male physicians to work with. We have a lot of fun at work, there is good rapport and the men just add to it. Muscle comes in handy but I have worked where there are only women on a shift and we do fine without it. As far as men in typically women only areas goes, I can see it both ways. I've had men as gynecologists and not thought a thing about it, I don't know that I would want a guy doing fundal checks and smushing clots out of me or asking me how many pads I've gone through that day. Just my modesty I think. I believe that if I had no choice in the matter that I would get over it quickly. I would NOT be thinking that the man was eyeballing my body parts. I am sure that in the ED where I work, some of the guys go to give a shot to a female patient and are appreciative of a nice behind, but I do the same thing. Giving an injection to a nice male butt can really make me smile. I have never seen the guys go gather up the other males nurses in the ED to go check out an unconscious womans boobs, but I have seen female nurses say "hey come in here and help me for a minute" only to be shown a man that was rather endowed. Perhaps that's because they are few and far between I have no problem working with men, I respect what they do. To me, they are just like me, another working person, just trying to make a living.
Dec 10, '03Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2my experience with quite a few of the male nurses I have worked with has been that they don't like to work very hard, and are constantly manipulating the females to do things for them. Their pay is higher, on average, than female nurses, which makes absolutely no sense to me, and this is especially true for NPs. Why is this? I think that this causes a LOT of the resentment.
When I was in nursing school, I was a single mom, working two jobs, no child support and making high B's and low A's. Most of my education was being paid for by ME. There was a guy who was in the Air Force, who wooed all of the faculty with his wonderful, well written , extensive reports, etc. He had a 4.0. He was also very good looking and charming. But I talked to his wife. She told me that he was almost abusive to her, complaining constantly about how hard he had to work (going to nursing school), and that he did not help her at all with the kids, housework, yard, etc. I know that all guys aren't like this, but.... there are some, and they make it hard for the others. I'm always open to someone and give them a chance until they show me otherwise. But I can see why resentment happens.
Also, with regards to forensics and rape exams... there have been guys who wanted to do this. I think it is important to keep the patient's perspective in mind. Many women do NOT want a man performing their rape exams (I'm sure it could be the same in OB, which is why some choose FEMALE CNMs, same reason many chose female physicians. Sure, a man can do just as good of a job, but sometimes it's about what the patient wants. Also, in the hospital where I work, very few men work on the floors where they are most needed - with the heavy lifting and such. There are more men in PEDS than in Ortho (actually, none in Ortho).
Nursing has been a predominantly female profession for a long time. Why should it be any easier for men to break into nursing than it is for women to break into other professions?
I think it's just the way it is, it will take time, and the bad apples looking for a good paycheck ruin it for the honestly caring and compassionate ones.
Dec 10, '03Occupation: Radiology PACS & 3D Imaging Joined: Apr '03; Posts: 498; Likes: 13When I read the thread about men in nursing not working as hard and getting more money (generally speaking) I am left with a feeling of hopelessness.
When I read that men are needed in areas where heavy lifting is required (not clinical skill) and that should be some kind of employment criteria I am left with a feeling of hopelessness.
When I read about the charming Air Force student nurse who was abusive to his wife (extrapolate that to men in general) I am left with a feeling of hopelessness.
When I read about male nurses who make it difficult for female colleagues because of some thinly veiled reference of making things more difficult for them I am left with a feeling of hoplessness.
When I think of all the ignorant people and the dumb things they do in the world I am left with a feeling of hoplessness.
But when I reminded that ignorant statements made by ignorant people are not always valid I am encouraged and I am motivated once again to fight the good fight.
Gender bias has no place in the work setting and I always endeavor to promote a working climate where pay and promotion is based upon merit, not prejudice.
Dec 10, '03Joined: Jun '03; Posts: 185; Likes: 353I have never had a negative experience with this issue. Our career male staff have been great and supported by all staff. Two of our senior male nurses started a "men's club". It was in good humor --they got a cerrtificate of membership and a blue pocket protector. My experience is that my unit cares if you are a caring and competent nurse and not what gender , sexual orientation , or color you are. The only negative I see is that any male staff (RN, CNA) gets asked to help move patients more often.
Dec 10, '03Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 2The question was "how do we change nurses' opinions" I think that I have only voiced the other side of the issue, which I often do. I am one to honestly look at both sides. I like men, a lot actually, and I have worked with wonderful men, but at the same time, all of the things that I said have been said by others... especially regarding the pay differences. I have had good and bad experiences with male nurses, probably just as many with female nurses, but the issue was "how do we change nurses opinions of male nurses?"
I have worked with older female physicians who were sexually harrassed, even assaulted by their superiors when they entered the medical field, which was and is predominantly male. It was hard for them, just as it is hard for men who are entering a predominantly female field. Of which there are very few. These females have told me of their superiors (and remember this was in the early 70s) demanding sex in order for them to pass their clinicals and such, they had very little recourse back then, and one who did report it, was eventually thrown out of medical school, deemed a trouble maker, and had to wait several years before she was emotionallly able to get into another school. How many male nurses do you know that have to go through stuff like that??? Look at the women in the armed forces who have been through these things! And talk to some females cops sometime...it isn't easy for them, either.
I don't think my statements are ignorant, I think they are realistic. The truth is, female nurses are probably harder on each other than they are on their male counterparts, overall. The truth is... this is the way it is, and dealing with it honestly and openly, and unemotionally is the only way it will ever change.
If addressing the honest truth, with regards to SOME situations makes one feel hopeless... and the only way to get around that hopelessess is to deem another's perspective as "ignorant" gives one back the hope that one needs to function, then I suppose that is just the way it is, as well. But, I tell my female counterparts, whom I see harassing younger, less experienced nurses the same thing... those actions make it more difficult for all of us. When I work with a male nurse who acts lazy and superior, I tell him that he is making it harder for all the guys. This kind of stuff DOES happen though. I guess we can deny it. I'm not one to be cruel to younger nurses, but I have seen it, and I'm not going to take it personally when someone says that "nurses kill their young"... I know that it isn't ALL nurses... but oftentimes, they do. I just stop it when I see it.
Peace, love and light
Dec 11, '03Occupation: Born again RN Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 33; Likes: 1Had to check in on this one.
Always interested in health care. Delivery boy in a retail pharmacy in HS. Boss would sometimes make love to girlfriend or 5th of Cutty Sark in back room so delivery boy filled Rxes. On school days got kicked out of most classes (except biology) to spend most days reading Gray's Anatomy or The Microbe Hunters, or textbooks of hematology. In addition to going on a long cruise to Tonkin Gulf, did lots of things before considering nursing. Worked in hospitals for 25 yrs and mostly ER staff nurse for 20. Age 56 before getting fired for first time from any job. Fired for "wine bottle in locker." Not possible to get unemployment compesation or any other job. Descrinated against? Without a doubt, but why? Male? Yes.
White? Yes. Old? Yes. But do not fit any category, female. minority retirement age. So too bad need to see if Burger King is hiring.
Burned out by nursing? Absolutely not! Sick of the health care system? Postively so. Feeling bad for being born a nurse? If God forgives born nurse for sins, boy nurse forgives God for making him born nurse.
Dec 11, '03Occupation: Radiology PACS & 3D Imaging Joined: Apr '03; Posts: 498; Likes: 13It has been said that "perception is reality". One often views the world we live in through the prism of our own experiences and we sometimes fail to remember that our own experiences are not necessarily shared by others.
Some of us through careful research and study of the human experience sometimes see things beyond the prism of our personal reality which then leads to even further research on the question of why?
There is no doubt that men in nursing have experienced discrimination, sexual harassment, hostile work environments, and other negative experiences that would encourage anyone to seek change or remedy.
Have women experienced these things? Most certainly. So why the phenomenon in nursing?
Perhaps it is as simple as the abused becoming the abuser because human nature is what it is. Those who abuse others often take advantage of vulnerable populations and opportunistic situations to satisfy some dark need of a sad and twisted soul.
The scary thing about this world is that so many fail to see the obvious until things literally fall apart. As a society we tend to be "reactive" and not "proactive" and that my friend is why the experience in nursing has been negative for so many men.
My humble opinion (and firm conviction) based upon the prism of my own experience which has been well documented by others in the review of literature.
A person wronged (no matter what the justification) is a person wronged.Last edit by hbscott on Dec 11, '03
Dec 11, '03Occupation: RN in L&D Joined: Nov '01; Posts: 720; Likes: 185Originally posted by forensicmsn
my experience with quite a few of the male nurses I have worked with has been that they don't like to work very hard, and are constantly manipulating the females to do things for them. Their pay is higher, on average, than female nurses, which makes absolutely no sense to me, and this is especially true for NPs. Why is this? I think that this causes a LOT of the resentment.
So what are you trying to say? one post clearly depicts male nurses as bad and the other says you were just presenting another side.
could you please state your position? at this point I would have to guess it is the one reflected by your first post but that you are afraid to say so.
However, in response to your first post I have some thoughts.
"When I was in nursing school, I was a single mom, working two jobs, no child support and making high B's and low A's. Most of my education was being paid for by ME. There was a guy who was in the Air Force, who wooed all of the faculty with his wonderful, well written , extensive reports, etc. He had a 4.0. He was also very good looking and charming. But I talked to his wife. She told me that he was almost abusive to her, complaining constantly about how hard he had to work (going to nursing school), and that he did not help her at all with the kids, housework, yard, etc. I know that all guys aren't like this, but.... there are some, and they make it hard for the others. I'm always open to someone and give them a chance until they show me otherwise. But I can see why resentment happens."
I could go on and on listing all the horrible things I've seen individual women do in nursing and nursing school. I could even say that I have seen more bad nurses then good and being that most nurses are women most of the bad ones were also. Does that mean when I see a women nurse I assume they are evil?heck no.
You have assembled a pretty good argument on one point. I don't think it was ever a question. Yes women have suffered discrimination and most certainly female doctors have and still do get mistreated.
Are you suggesting that because women have suffered discrimination that men should receive the same treatment as fair payment? Or do you simply mean to shrink the significance of the discrimination against men by comparison to what you see as more painful treatment female doctors have received?
"Nursing has been a predominantly female profession for a long time. Why should it be any easier for men to break into nursing than it is for women to break into other professions?"
Because it shouldn't be hard for any of us men or women to pursue the careers we have chosen. Discrimination is wrong and saying that isn't wrong for one group to suffer it simply because another did is wrong.
Then you end your post with one of the most marvelous displays of gender bias I have seen.
"Also, with regards to forensics and rape exams... there have been guys who wanted to do this. I think it is important to keep the patient's perspective in mind. Many women do NOT want a man performing their rape exams (I'm sure it could be the same in OB, which is why some choose FEMALE CNMs, same reason many chose female physicians. Sure, a man can do just as good of a job, but sometimes it's about what the patient wants. Also, in the hospital where I work, very few men work on the floors where they are most needed - with the heavy lifting and such. There are more men in PEDS than in Ortho (actually, none in Ortho). "
I'll start off by saying that if a patient requests a female give it to them. At the same time many older patients male and female have told me they aren't comfortable with female doctors. Do I advocate for there right to make that decision sure but does that mean I think they are right in making that decision?
Lets talk about men in OB, I am 1. (couple different points on this one)
1st you assume that women don't want men working these areas the reason you assume this is because its your opinion and you project that onto patients. I can assuredly tell you that it is a less common opinion then you think.
2nd lets talk about why you feel that way. Events/Ideas in your past have shaped your opinions just as they do for everyone. I'm not going to try and Analise your life ill just suffice to say that those idea's and events were strongly influenced by society and its accepted gender roles. This is the same problem that women faced as they became doctors. People didn't believe they could be as skillful as men. What changed that belief was women entering the field and proving it wrong.
The belief that makes it hard for some to accept men as OB/GYN nurses is the misconception we cannot be as compassionate as women along with the fear that we are looking and either enjoying it too much or thinking yuk. Both are false but they wont be proven wrong until enough men are in those areas to prove them wrong.
As for not working the areas where they are needed for lifting.
What if I were to say women don't work in the areas they are needed for bringing men coffee or cooking dinner?
I did not become a nurse to lift your patients for you just as you did not become one to fetch my coffee and one assumption is just as insulting as the other.
I hear the lifting thing so much it makes me sick. I know you don't mean it as rude but thats because society says I'm supposed to want to show off how strong I am just as women in the 50's were supposed to show how accommodating they could be to the wishes of men.
As adversarial as my post may seem I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. It is hard for some to accept changes to "the way things are" just as it was hard for men to accept the changes to the medical field as women entered it.
instead of bickering about who has or had it worse we should just agree that it is wrong and do our best not to perpetuate it.Last edit by Dayray on Dec 11, '03