I'm posting this in the general discussion rather than the student discussion, as I want to hear from people who were successful in doing something like this.
I'm the president of my ADN class, graduating this May. We have 17 students, 14 of them women. Our faculty is, almost entirely, *extremely* conservative, and the school is in a very small town. Our pinning ceremony is held in a church, and has pretty significant christian religious overtones, which I have a problem with; I think it's an inappropriate blurring of the line between church and state (this is a state-funded community college), and I've had a few students express discomfort with having the ceremony in this church. By the way- it's only held there for faculty preference; there's plenty of room on campus.
My main concern, though, is the attire for the ceremony. We're being forced to wear white dresses and caps. Now, we have to wear the caps in most clinical rotations, which is enough of an indignity (people think we're kidding, that other staff members are playing practical jokes on them by sending students in the room with caps on...it's nauseating, but I've tried to change this with no success). But I think it's ludicrous to insist we wear them at the pinning ceremony. It's *our* event, not the faculty's. In my opinion, the requirement that women wear dresses is inappropriately sexist, and from a logistical standpoint, *nobody* should be spending money on a white dress that will gather dust forever, when we have the expense of the NCLEX looming in our immediate future.
We have one student who wants to wear a white dress, and the others are adamantly opposed to it. I'm looking for ways to approach the program director with alternatives...I think that I need to have some suggestions, or he's just going to shut it down completely. Personally, this issue is important enough to me that I won't attend the ceremony if we have to wear the dresses. I know of at least 2 other women who plan to do the same thing.
My current plan is to have a meeting with the director and my vice-president to discuss the feelings our class has about the issue, and suggest a couple of alternatives- wearing nice, 'dressy' outfits, or wearing our clinical uniform (white smock and lab coat with navy pants). I'd like to hear from anyone else who had to address this issue, and how you resolved it. I'm also open to any suggestions *anyone* has...this director is extremely old-fashioned (he said he'd have us all wearing black stockings and orthopedic shoes, if he had his way), but he also respects me *specifically* because I'm confident and outspoken. By the way, if this were not the prevailing feeling of the other class members, I'd just skip the ceremony...I'm treating it like a class issue because I feel that's my role as the class president.
Also, please don't try to convince me we should be wearing the dresses. I don't really give a hoot about someone else's traditions that encourage disrespect and sexism, so the 'traditional' nurse's uniform is something I refuse to ever put on my body. I find the caps degrading enough...I am a medical professional in training, and there's nothing more irritating than having a doctor or nurse or patient say, 'how *cute*!!' when I walk into a room. If you disagree with me, I certainly respect your opinion, but I am absolutely certain of my position on this subject.
I'm posting this in the general discussion rather than the student discussion, as I want to hear from people who were successful in doing something like this.
I'm the president of my ADN class, graduating this May. We have 17 students, 14 of them women. Our faculty is, almost entirely, *extremely* conservative, and the school is in a very small town. Our pinning ceremony is held in a church, and has pretty significant christian religious overtones, which I have a problem with; I think it's an inappropriate blurring of the line between church and state (this is a state-funded community college), and I've had a few students express discomfort with having the ceremony in this church. By the way- it's only held there for faculty preference; there's plenty of room on campus.
My main concern, though, is the attire for the ceremony. We're being forced to wear white dresses and caps. Now, we have to wear the caps in most clinical rotations, which is enough of an indignity (people think we're kidding, that other staff members are playing practical jokes on them by sending students in the room with caps on...it's nauseating, but I've tried to change this with no success). But I think it's ludicrous to insist we wear them at the pinning ceremony. It's *our* event, not the faculty's. In my opinion, the requirement that women wear dresses is inappropriately sexist, and from a logistical standpoint, *nobody* should be spending money on a white dress that will gather dust forever, when we have the expense of the NCLEX looming in our immediate future.
We have one student who wants to wear a white dress, and the others are adamantly opposed to it. I'm looking for ways to approach the program director with alternatives...I think that I need to have some suggestions, or he's just going to shut it down completely. Personally, this issue is important enough to me that I won't attend the ceremony if we have to wear the dresses. I know of at least 2 other women who plan to do the same thing.
My current plan is to have a meeting with the director and my vice-president to discuss the feelings our class has about the issue, and suggest a couple of alternatives- wearing nice, 'dressy' outfits, or wearing our clinical uniform (white smock and lab coat with navy pants). I'd like to hear from anyone else who had to address this issue, and how you resolved it. I'm also open to any suggestions *anyone* has...this director is extremely old-fashioned (he said he'd have us all wearing black stockings and orthopedic shoes, if he had his way), but he also respects me *specifically* because I'm confident and outspoken. By the way, if this were not the prevailing feeling of the other class members, I'd just skip the ceremony...I'm treating it like a class issue because I feel that's my role as the class president.
Also, please don't try to convince me we should be wearing the dresses. I don't really give a hoot about someone else's traditions that encourage disrespect and sexism, so the 'traditional' nurse's uniform is something I refuse to ever put on my body. I find the caps degrading enough...I am a medical professional in training, and there's nothing more irritating than having a doctor or nurse or patient say, 'how *cute*!!' when I walk into a room. If you disagree with me, I certainly respect your opinion, but I am absolutely certain of my position on this subject.
Ok in this original post it is being held in a Church and the phrase "significant christian religious overtones" is thrown in but no specifics. I asked for specifics. She continues "MY main concern though is the attire for the ceremony" At this point I am hearing "I would be willing to overlook the Church thing if I could wear whatever I want. She admits attempting to change policy regarding the caps without success. The entire rest of the post is about the clothing issue nothing more about religion or Church.
Consider that possibly there is a lesson to be learned, what about humility, while wearing a cap that announces you are a nurse perhaps you should show pride that you are becoming a professional and you should learn to be looked upon differently. Perhaps, thew white dresses are to honor a tradition tah nursing is something you should be proud of and shine while doing. Perhaps the faculty just wants a good laugh after taking crap from all of you for the last 2 years LOL!!!
I probably shouldn't be posting because I feel that usually traditions have their purpose and yes they are always subject to change because your traditions aren't their traditions, but you know I was Proud to walk down the isle in My white Nursing uniform that I wore to all my clincals and carry my little lamp and recite the nurses oath. I felt it was a right of passage and I felt I deserved it!
This was my first post light and playful.
My next post wasn't to the OP but to answer someone elses views that a lawsuit could be the way to go
As for being held in a Church I guess that could be construed as wrong by some but if you are graduating from a nursing program you should be mature enough to be able to separate your beleif's from those of others and you should also be open minded enough to be able to conform to the will of others on such small points afterall you may have Pts in the future that will ask you to pray with them, will you turn your back on them, IF you are secure in your own belief why should just entering a Church or attending a ceremnoy in a Church be so offensive, many people who are devout Christians go to many ceremonies in many other places than Churches and do not make it out to be a big conspiracy designed to undermine their beliefs.
I was simply stating that as adults and open minded people sometimes it is just easier to take the high road, just go through the obsticles and come out the other side stronger. Of course separation of Church and State is ordained but is it really the issue here, so far I heard more concern with clothing issues.
My next was also to another poster and also inquirey.
Please enlighten me. How is religion being forced on you just because something is held in a church? If it isn't a religous ceremony it isn't religous. A church is just a building. Many functions can be held there. As I mentioned many devout christians go to many ceremonies in many buildings and never make it out to be a way to break their religous beliefs.
Were they going to make you pray? Was there going to be prayer? Was there going to be a Preacher or minister? The church is a congregation of people that come together to worship, a building is just a building. A building where a church meets is often considered a church but if you look into it you will find that NO building is really what contains God or religion, people house God. Religion is a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
The you will see after the OP listed answers to these questions I replied.
You are absolutely correct I made assumptions with out all the data. Which is what I have been asking for all along. Now you mention prayer and being lead by the minister and several other things. I never attempted to be inflammatory I attempted to pose my querry so that it would not offend anyone, and no you never said you didn't believe which is why I stated IF you don't believe or IF organized religion. I was merely trying to gain full understanding. It seems you have a valid concern, but prior to this it was not clear there would be prayer and Minister officiating etc. My theory was if you were just protesting the Separation of Church and state I could see getting around it. If you have bigger issues then go for the change, hey I am just discussing the matter I am in no way emotional about it, if I have offended I apolgize, thanks for the clarification.
You seem like a worthy Class President, and staunch advocate you will likely make a wonderful nurse!
Congratulations on your graduation and Good Luck in all your endeavors!!!
CCU NRS
It isn't a matter of being "offensive" or "threatening." It is a simple matter of preference. It is also a matter of not having someone else's religious beliefs pushed down your throat, which I believe is happening here. As I understand it, it isn't simply that the ceremony is held in the church, but that the ceremony has distinctly religious overtones. THAT's the problem. Someone else already brought up the satanic temple, but let's consider a somewhat less extreme example:
Suppose the director of this program was a Muslim, and wanted to have the pinning ceremony in the local mosque. Further suppose that the director wanted the ceremony to have "distinctly Muslim overtones." Would you be equally OK with that? The issue isn't whether or not class members find someone else's religious beliefs threatening, the issue is whether they should be forced to celebrate their own accomplishment by honoring someone else's religious beliefs.
Kevin McHugh
So when I was asking other posters to clarify what so upset them about just being in a church I was honestly curious and I kept getting vague answer so I would be more explicit in my questions, ie does it offend, threaten etc. so now I have given a comeplete run down and I will say I meant no disrespect or offense to anyone I was simply asking questions the only way I know how very directly and yes the assumptions were mine about offensive threatening etc because I can not see any real reasons and yes I am open to all things and always pretty easy going I feel like just about any ceremony would be ok as long as I wasn't expected to wear a dress. LOL I have always been an easy going take it as it comes and don't rock the boat too much kind of guy also this may be why I don't really get all of the high emotion surrounding the issues.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Well this has been interesting.....OP:
any updates?
I am very interested to see what happens here.
I think you all should have the ceremony YOU WANT, and if that is NOT in a church, all wearing white uniforms, as long as majority agrees, it seems fair to me. I understand your concerns, regarding the church venue issue, and I get what you are saying here. I know you don't have an issue with religion or churches, just want a neutral location for your ceremony. It seems very reasonable to me.
Will you please keep up updated? You made some very good arguments here, and I second the sentiment that someone else expressed: You seem a very worthy class president with strong leadership qualities I respect----(I was class president of my class, so I truly admire you). Good luck!
My CC until this year had the "recognition ceremony" in a church, our school had no place big enough to have it until this year (we added a new building) and our class was the first to use the auditorium. We wore white outfits (pants, skirts whatever) and we even gave everyone 30 bucks to buy them from the money we earned. We chose the singer, songs music and what kind of reception to have. The school only dictated that we have white uniforms and if you wanted a cap it had to have the school colors for the stripes. They also required us to have the Nurses Prayer and we recieved lamps and recited this in unison. We had one guy who just stood there and did not recite the prayer because he doesn't believe in prayer. It was nice! Rachel I think it is wonderful that you are fighting for your class but decide what the biggest issue is the church or the dresses, that way you guys can concide on one issue and win on another. Hope all works out for you and your class
and isn't a Mosque (and other names that I don't know) also a type of church?
We may have different beliefs, but no matter who we worship....it all boils down to one thing. Like they study in some 12 step groups and other places, the higher power we all have is one who guides us, whether it be God, Buddah, or whatever else....
Yea~ I would be willing to participate with friends or classmates. Yes~ I would be willing to have a more "integrated" ceremony.
I respect those who are different than I, and honor their beliefs. Yes, I would be there and be proud of the diversity in all of us and in the friendship we had.
But what if someone is an atheist and doesn't believe in anything?
What if I wanted it in my church and a Buddhist in my class had to look at a ginormous (seriously, the thing is HUGE) cross with a very detailed, almost naked, Jesus on it?
The this is you cannot assume anything about anyone when it come to religion. Example, I took "The Bible as Liturature" as a humanities class. It was assumed that everyone (including the professor) was Christian as we spent most of our time in the New Testament. One day an woman in her 60's started her comment "Well since God isn't real..." everyone's jaw dropped. :chuckle It was unimaginable to some that an atheist would even consider taking the class.
A state funded college is better off having all ceremonies(sp?) on neutral ground. Better safe than sorry.
What if I wanted it in my church and a Buddhist in my class had to look at a ginormous (seriously, the thing is HUGE) cross with a very detailed, almost naked, Jesus on it?
If you are Catholic, which I suspect, I doubt if a Catholic Church would allow a nursing ceremony to take place there. I think there are strict rules about that.
If you are Catholic, which I suspect, I doubt if a Catholic Church would allow a nursing ceremony to take place there. I think there are strict rules about that.
I'm not sure. Ours allows non-Catholic weddings if one of the participants is Catholic and the priest directs the ceremony (but it's nothing close to the hour long Mass). Plus, it's a pretty community based church.
Even if it wasn't in my church. Who's to say that everyone is comfortable in place of worship that isn't the same religion? I had a boyfriend (Baptist) who would break out in a sweat if he walked into a Catholic church.
I still think that if the school isn't faith based then the ceremony should be held somewhere other than a church. I live in a tiny town and I can think of plenty of places to have a ceremony that aren't affiliated to any particular religion.
Some small communities might not have many banquet room to choose from and a church might be the only choice. Although the school campus would seem to always be a fall back. But I agree with the idea that a graduation ceremony would be best at a non-religious location and without religous ceremony (prayers) that might isolate class members. Stating the obvious, it's a day of celebration, not religious worship.
I'm having a similar dilemma as a class leader: The school's traditional pin has a nurse-y/angel type figure holding an illuminated cross in outstretched arms. This is at a large public junior college with a very diverse population. I just think religious imagery is out of place on the insignias of state institution. Of course, not enough people care--diverse population, but largely apathetic.
Good luck. If all else fails: You could write a very polished, polite, and professional (the 3 P's) letter detailing your class' wishes and concerns, address it to the nursing department, and cc it to the college's legal counsel & the state board of education. My guess is that you wouldn't need to go much further.
I agree that you should write up a professional letter, clearly outlining that the class objects to the attire and the location, giving reasons for these objections, and presenting a viable alternative. I also think that one poster's idea of copying the board of education is a great idea.
My pinning ceremony is on Feb. 8, and it's being held at the university. The only requirement that the School of Nursing put on us is that we all wear matching scrubs, and the class got to vote on the color. We voted on blue, and it doesn't even have to be the same shade of blue...as long as we all wear a pair of blue scrubs.
Good luck with this...you've worked too hard to let anything mar your pinning ceremony.
I can't believe that the facility is deciding what you wear at your pinning. I graduated from CCRI in RI and they let us decide to wear a white outfit of any kind. Most peolpe wore scrub tops but I bought a real nice white dress top, I didn't like the idea that they tried to tell us what to wear then. We were thinking of showing up in all dress clothes but the majority decided not to. Good luck in changing there minds. :rotfl: Thats what I'd like to do with people who try to take over our ceremony. Ahh! If you decide not to attend I'd understand because I almost didn't go either. Congrats at becoming a nurse. Good luck on the NCLEX.
CCU NRS
1,245 Posts
Ok in this original post it is being held in a Church and the phrase "significant christian religious overtones" is thrown in but no specifics. I asked for specifics. She continues "MY main concern though is the attire for the ceremony" At this point I am hearing "I would be willing to overlook the Church thing if I could wear whatever I want. She admits attempting to change policy regarding the caps without success. The entire rest of the post is about the clothing issue nothing more about religion or Church.
This was my first post light and playful.My next post wasn't to the OP but to answer someone elses views that a lawsuit could be the way to go
I was simply stating that as adults and open minded people sometimes it is just easier to take the high road, just go through the obsticles and come out the other side stronger. Of course separation of Church and State is ordained but is it really the issue here, so far I heard more concern with clothing issues.My next was also to another poster and also inquirey.
The you will see after the OP listed answers to these questions I replied.
So when I was asking other posters to clarify what so upset them about just being in a church I was honestly curious and I kept getting vague answer so I would be more explicit in my questions, ie does it offend, threaten etc. so now I have given a comeplete run down and I will say I meant no disrespect or offense to anyone I was simply asking questions the only way I know how very directly and yes the assumptions were mine about offensive threatening etc because I can not see any real reasons and yes I am open to all things and always pretty easy going I feel like just about any ceremony would be ok as long as I wasn't expected to wear a dress. LOL I have always been an easy going take it as it comes and don't rock the boat too much kind of guy also this may be why I don't really get all of the high emotion surrounding the issues.