Ever "talk back" an MD/ other person whose screaming at you?

[diapason05]

I'm pre-nursing. I'm addicted to these boards and have been reading posts all night.

It seems like a lot of MDs don't respect RNs that much and/or just don't think they are that smart/competent/knowledgeable.

Is it even possible to stand up for yourself when a nursing supervisor or someone higher up--OR an MD tells us off in a somewhat embarrassing/abusive fashion?? Will you automatically lose your job if you don't just sit there and take it?

I'm really interested in medicine.

I have chosen to go the nursing route for a variety of reasons- I thought about being an MD, but its just not realistic for me with the future I am looking forward to having with my Navy husband.

Anyway, I plan on learning as much as possible. I don't look forward to being treated like a moron.. by anyone. that'll suck. ;(

I'm also worried about working with all women. I read the "nurses eat their young" post... I literally just quit a job at starbucks because the females there (it was an ALL female staff), did not like me and made me feel really unwelcome (you know, talking behind my back to management-- rolling their eyes when I'd try to be nice and make friends with them.. high school girl clique crap.) I think part of it was a whole different thing-- as I just moved to hawaii and sometimes there is some animosity toward "howlees" (white people) from the locals (everyone I worked with).

Anyway, my real question in this post is being asked because I am trying to actually fathom the dynamics of the relationship between nurse and MD in a hospital setting. (I would imagine in a private clinic things might be a bit different, but I don't know..)

[DaFreak71]

Why would you worry about getting fired for speaking up and standing your ground? To my knowledge doctors arent the ones who hire nurses.

Because in some places nurses are more expendable than doctors. If a MD whines about someone telling him off, depending on how aggressive he is being about it, it might result in termination. But I'll be that's a bit rare.

With regard to standing your ground, I'd do it in New York minute. My husband is a RN and he's been snapped at by a few docs for things that were not his fault. He don't play that game. As a result, the same MD's now treat him more like a peer. They pull him aside and talk in depth with him about the patients condition, etc.

To quote Dr. Phil (for what it's worth)--"You teach people how to treat you".

So if you are all passive and walk on egg shells around the MD's, they're gonna treat you like a moron (most won't but there are some that sure will). If you act like you are an assertive person who isn't afraid to speak up, it's amazing how people will leave you alone. I've noticed this in my personal life. Here's a real life example (I'm a student nurse by the way):

I was in clinical one day and we were under a time crunch to finish our charting and get to post conference ASAP. I had a patient who needed their pain meds at that exact moment. Afterward, I grabbed the chart and began charting about it. MD comes up to me and says, can I see that chart? I said--give me five minutes and I'll bring it to you. My classmates jaws collectively dropped. How dare I tell a MD to wait until I was finished with the chart. After all, we had been trained to not sit in their chairs, to not ask them questions, to basically avoid eye contact with them (ok, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point). When I was finished charting (about three minutes later) I gave him the chart. He responded by saying "Wow, you've got beautiful handwriting". No animosity whatsoever.

Don't let these threads scare you out of becoming a nurse. There are extreme situations where ever you go, but it isn't true that you are destined to end up with co-workers who treat you like crap or have MD's talk down to you. And hey, if that should be the case at the job you take...leave. Nurses are in demand and you can find another job quite quickly.

Don't be scared. Just focus on getting your pre-nursing classes out of the way, then focus on school. You'll get a better idea of the workplace dynamics when you do clinical. Or at least a glimpse.

[Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP]

Most docs are nice folks, just like most people in the general population. Docs (and other nurses, for that matter) are just people too.

Most are trying their best to take care of their patients, just as we are.

[rnmomtobe2010]

Tweety said it best. Thanks!

[time4meRN]

You'd better get over that. Nursing isn't the only feild that "eats their young". It's not just women either. I've seen many men intimidate nurses as well. And heck, yes I yell back. Maybe yell isn't the correct word. I do not stoope tjo their level. I speak in a professional manner, concentrating on what I want to say. A few weeks ago, a dr gave me an order in ICU, to dose the Amiodarone like the God D@** box says. So I wrote that as the telephone order on the chart. Because I'm such a "good" nurse, I would never write an order that was any different than the Dr. tells me. Haaa !!! the next day that order was gone. Of course the next week he didn't dose the Amio. the way the GD box said. He did it different.

[RedWeasel, RN]

i recently was given a new hole by a surgeon over the phone. My pt had fallen and pt was post head bleed. OH MY LORD he said he was about to lay down and what is wrong with us (pt had alarm but he had dc'd his 1to1) and I was not to let the pt fall again, (cuz I let it happen the first time) and could i DO that? pt had fallen many times before reaching our floor, he asked how incision looked told him a lil blood at site, but that certainly doesnt tell me whats going on inside pts head...etc.. 'i dont give a shheet about that what i want to know is am i going to get a call at 3 am saying the pt is gushing blood?' -all questions i cannot answer. wow, you cant say anything in response. I ask if i can make pt a 1to1 supervision, I dont know what you can do just do not let pt fall again. what a jerk. all iwanted was a ct-didnt get one from him for 24 hours---he said it was ok then 12 hrs later decides pt is bleeding off to ICU....chg asked why i called surgeon (only one who signed orders onthe other floor) wellll geee what if i hadnt' never let your fear get to you-always call if you want to protect your license-and your pts....remember they cant reach through the phone...and if they could i dont know if i wouldnt be tempted to just wrap the phone cord over their necks. jk oh and yes the order i wrote: "do not let pt fall again"

[sharona97, BSN, RN]

Have some confidence!!! I usually ask a ? if I know I won'y be interrupting a conversation or if they are deep in thought on something concerning the pt. Lots of docs are glad to explain and teach. Taking CEU's (requirement or not) to help further educate you is another great way to gain knowledge. Hope tis helps.

[edprincess]

Tweety, I agree with what you said about handling others. I think though, the reason you haven't gotten "yelled" at is because you're a male. It seems physicians, men and women, have more respect sometimes for the males then the females. I've been yelled at a couple of times and both times I looked the MD in the eyes and said, "Don't speak to me in the tone" or "Don't speak to me like that". One MD started in on me at the patient's bedside. I politely excused myself and when he exited the room....Oh my! I explained that I didn't appreciate his tone or the fact that he did embarrass me in front of my pt. He calmed down and his voice normalized. I guess some MD are "Me doctor, you nurse" and others are just sexist. Either way, the majority of docs I haven't had a problem with but the couple I did, I did stand up for myself and got the desired result.

[sharann, BSN, RN]

If you really want to be an MD and are settling for nursing because your husband is in the Navy and so on, please rethink your career choice. Maybe apply to PA school or something else. You sound like you are going to be a nurse who constantly gets into it with docs and staff. If you tell your nurse co-workers how you really are interested in medicine and wanted to be a doctor you are going to be eaten alive. I am not being mean, I hope, I am saying that I worked with a few who "settled" and this is where the "Just a nurse" attitude comes from. You have no idea how many times nurses have saved patients lives by NOT following doctors orders blindly and by sometimes having to get ugly with them for the patients benefit.

Do some soul searching. Nursing is fun, hard, fascinating, irritating, exhausting, thank;ess, stinky, dirty, intimate and amazing. You have to really want to do it. DOn't waste years to get there then decide you don't want to get your hands dirty.

good luck

[gt4everpn, BSN, RN]

no matter who has what title, no one deserves to be spoken down to and publicly embarrassed! healthcare facilities are goal oriented settings where everyone works as a team, so no one person or profession is more valuable than the next, of course the m.d is the one calling the shots, so to speak, but the nursing profession is just that, a profession and we're competent individuals, so no one deserves to be humiliated! of course everywhere and thing has its goods and bads, but focus on the goods for now and you'll get through the negatives, which aren't the norm!

[Dragonnurse1, ASN, RN]

I have told one MD to "make up his damn mind) and I became his prefered nurse and asked about the patients. I called one a jackass & he went and apologized to the nurse he made cry. I had to call a thoracic surgeon at 4am and he wanted to know why. I told him my orders were to call him when his patient arrived that he had accepted by phone. He started going off and I said you have 3 choices, come in, Get the ER Doc to write orders or give me his orders. For a moment he was quiet and asked what I would put down as admitting dx. I gave him list of orders but gave him choice of pre-op meds. Not another problem. We had a patient that has munchausens (we were not aware )he claimed a bad headache post spinal tap. Anathesia was called in and had given patient bood patch. When he found out he was charting standing right in front of me and next to the MD that trusted me to do everything with patients. I stood up and told him the incidence could not be avoided as she gave every symptom and his reply was well you are not very good at - It was at this point Ace moved away and I asked the doc to follow me. I informed him that I would no take being talked down to I gave him the info as soon as I got it. But do not get in my face and call me dumb. We left the room , he spoke to Ace on the way out. Ace later told me I was one of the best nurses in ER. There are a lot of doc's out there that yell trying to see the metal you are made of. Show them you are steel with some bend but you are not in that department for him to try to disgrace you.

By the way Dragonnurse is what the residents called me when they had night er call.