Future Requirements for CRNA schools?

loisane · Oct 21, 2004

Dan,

There is currently some PRELIMINARY discussion regarding moving the entry level degree to the doctorate level. This doctorate would not necessarily be a PhD, although of course it could be.

Master's degrees are not prerequisites for doctorates, although many doctorate programs are structured so to accommodate various entries, and this of course varies the time commitment to complete the doctorate. The changes being discussed would not effect entry into nurse anesthesia programs. What would change is the degree you receive upon completion of a nurse anesthesia program.

Bottom line, these are very preliminary discussions. Nothing has been agrreed upon or decided yet. Any changes will take years to implement. It is an interesting discussion, and one worthy of following. But it is also nothing to get too uptight about, or have a major impact on your planning.

Hope this helps,

loisane crna

DanRnWv · Oct 21, 2004

Loisane

Thank you for the response

Dan,
There is currently some PRELIMINARY discussion regarding moving the entry level degree to the doctorate level. This doctorate would not necessarily be a PhD, although of course it could be.
Master's degrees are not prerequisites for doctorates, although many doctorate programs are structured so to accommodate various entries, and this of course varies the time commitment to complete the doctorate. The changes being discussed would not effect entry into nurse anesthesia programs. What would change is the degree you receive upon completion of a nurse anesthesia program.
Bottom line, these are very preliminary discussions. Nothing has been agrreed upon or decided yet. Any changes will take years to implement. It is an interesting discussion, and one worthy of following. But it is also nothing to get too uptight about, or have a major impact on your planning.
Hope this helps,
loisane crna

rn29306 · Oct 21, 2004

From listening to our PdD instructor, yes the initial meeting and voting is taking place this month and will afftect future entrants to CRNA and NP. This will take several years to get standard acrosss the board. It will offer several courses, one of which will be much like a PharmD (now entry level PhD pharmacist), meaning it will be a clinical doctorate program without a dissertation. A clinical doctorate will not allow university teaching position as a dissertation was not performed. Supposedly one of the options is to have a person go through the master's portion as a full time student, graduate with a master's, take boards, and begin to work at a salaried position. The student would take home 75% of the pay, with the other 25% going to whatever school/university hospital as a way to pay for the clinical fellowship. The clinical fellowship in up to 2 speciealties is completed at a part-time schedule. This option is attractive as it allows someone (esp with family), to provide some portion of an income during the last years.

This is all preliminary, but yes you are correct in the rumors - they are voting this month. Don't get discouraged in your efforts. If anyone has additional information or has heard something different, I would like to hear from you. Again, this is all preliminary and we will have to see what the final decree is later on down the road.

CRNA, DNSc · Oct 21, 2004

Loisanne has made several good points but I would like to clarify a few things. The discussions center around the idea of the clinical doctorate as an entry to practice degree, the arguements include the idea that we are already meeting similar requirements in length and credits of clinical doctorate programs. This is just an evolution of the nurse anesthesia educational programs that is consistant with our history----the movement of programs from the certificate to the bachelors to the masters. We are probably closer to seeing a program open than Loisanne might think but that doesn't mean that there will be an immediate rush of all programs to move to the clinical doctorate level. The current AANA Bulletin is advertising for a new program director for a new program at the doctoral level so it might not be as long as you might think. Just be aware that the clinical doctorate is not the same as the research doctorate (PhD or DNSc, etc). The clinical doctorate as entry to practice is what the pharmacy and physical therapy fields have gone/are going to. :)

loisane · Oct 21, 2004

A clinical doctorate will not allow university teaching position as a dissertation was not performed.

This is a question of some controversy. Academic centers vary in how they regard the clinical doctorate. My understanding is that while you may not be as fully qualified as the PhD (to be dean, or chair committees), you are still able to teach. Clinical doctorates do include a research component, just not as rigorous as at the PhD level.

My personal prediction is, that as these degrees become more common, they will become more accepted, and we will see an evolution in how they are regarded in all arenas.

BTW, interesting comments CRNA, DNSc. I have to say I am not completely surprised to hear that some programs are progressing more rapidly regarding this issue. In my experience, talk of raising the bar to doctorates seems to strike a panic in "wannabes". But if the profession is making significant steps in that direction, then I suppose you are right, and it is an issue they need to deal with.

loisane crna

UCDSICURN · Oct 21, 2004

Supposedly one of the options is to have a person go through the master's portion as a full time student, graduate with a master's, take boards, and begin to work at a salaried position. The student would take home 75% of the pay, with the other 25% going to whatever school/university hospital as a way to pay for the clinical fellowship. The clinical fellowship in up to 2 speciealties is completed at a part-time schedule.

This is very exciting...

TennRN2004 · Oct 22, 2004

I personally would like to see the education level raised to clinical doctorate, PhD, whatever we decide to call it. I just wonder though how the credentials of CRNAs will change? Obviously you will still be a CRNA if you have a doctorate too, maybe it will just be like RNs who have their BSNs. I just see a lot of confusion if CRNAs start having their doctorate and use the title "Dr. so and so" at the hospital with patients. Patients and families are confused enough about who's who at the hospital and what the titles/roles actually are. At the same time, if I had a doctorate, I would definitely want to use the title as it is a huge educational achievment and measure of respect.

CougRN · Oct 22, 2004

I just see a lot of confusion if CRNAs start having their doctorate and use the title "Dr. so and so" at the hospital with patients. Patients and families are confused enough about who's who at the hospital and what the titles/roles actually are. At the same time, if I had a doctorate, I would definitely want to use the title as it is a huge educational achievment and measure of respect.

This is sure to be interesting. PT's are now having to get their PhD's as their basic level of education. And some hospitals are requiring them to not use Dr. when they introduce themselves to patients. This would really upset me if I had earned my Doctorate but was not able to use the title. I wonder how my prof's would feel if I told them I wouldn't call them Dr. because they aren't MD's. I think we will see a lot of problems in the future with this but bring em on.

Kaelie · Oct 22, 2004

I'm interested in this as well....something to consider later down the road. :)

apaisRN, RN, CRNA · Oct 22, 2004

This is sure to be interesting. PT's are now having to get their PhD's as their basic level of education. And some hospitals are requiring them to not use Dr. when they introduce themselves to patients. This would really upset me if I had earned my Doctorate but was not able to use the title. I wonder how my prof's would feel if I told them I wouldn't call them Dr. because they aren't MD's. I think we will see a lot of problems in the future with this but bring em on.

Oooh, that is really disrespectful. I call dentists and vets "Dr." even though they're not "doctors" - I'd expect to call a PT or a doctorate-prepared nurse Dr. too. It's a hard-earned title and I'll be damned if my boss tells me not to use it (if I ever attain it).

I hadn't realized PTs now have to get doctorates - last I heard the entry level had moved from bachelors to masters. Good for them.

NurseFirst · Oct 22, 2004

Although PAs at this moment are moving toward standardization on a Masters, if all the other clinical arenas are moving toward a doctorate--what would that be like if PAs decided to do this as well?!?!?

NurseFirst