For those "medicly minded" students feeling like they're in the wrong field of study.

Nursing Students General Students

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Fellow suferrers,

I'm writing this because there may be others like me out there before I realized that nursing has almost nothing to do with science, or medicine, and is often at odds with the medical community. These facts may have alot to do with why nursing is the Rodney Dangerfield of the hospital and "don't get no respect" from administration and has a poor public image.

I've spent the better part of the last year trying to rationalize nursing didactic focus. I can find no value in it that develops the critical thinking skills that those pronursing advocates would have you believe exists. I also don't understand how a bachelors degree in science can be awarded to a person completing four years of training in that supposed science with only a college level math and one lonely little chemistry course. I figured that the science in nursing would be unique, but not so unique that it did not resemble science at all. I kept waiting for the next set of classes to show some inkling of medical knowledge until the day I recieved the "pharmacology" packet. The one class out of twentyfive that had real promise of laying out some scientific information, but clung desparately to its psychosocial touchy-feely model. None of the contraindications were explored and the assessments all involved hypoventilation as a focus. The main theme for that packet was drug calculations, which are nothing more than operations with fractions. I could go on of course, but if you are a scientific minded person you have been feeling this since the prerequisites, so you know what I'm talking about.

Really, I should have given this up a semester ago, but I had to explore the possibility that it may have been just a poor attitude about something new. I can honestly say that the attitude belongs to nursing's curicculum. Ever since Florence Nightengale nursing has been struggling to define an identity. If they use the medical model they wouldn't be unique enough to justify a separate identity. That yearning for identity complicated the use of anything medical, though they obviously already had a separate identity within the medical model since the job desciptions between nursing and other allied contrast. I'm here to tell you that nursing has quite successfuly cut-the-cord. There is very little to hold interest to the scientificly minded individual. The problem with that course is that nursing is now so estanged from the medical community that birthed it, that it doesn't work in medicine at all. Nursing is psychology and philosophy, masqerading as a science. By its own efforts it has become so separated from medical thinking that it is now dysfunctional in it.

It is not you.

Nursing just doesn't work for someone that thinks about medicine. The students that are fond of the sciences now in prerequisites and loathe the psychology and developmental theories, will neverfind what they seek in a nursing program. You will be miserable, as I was, and you will make the people around you miserable.

You can't hold your breath until NP classes either. The same anti-medical thinking dominates that too. Save yourself, and your brilliant and exact medical thought process, and see nursing for what it is.

This past week I have prepared to start work on the pre-coursework sciences that I'm lacking for a degree in physiology and neurobiology. I will become a physician's assisstant. The curicculum in the last two years is the same medical model that the physiscians themselves trained in. It's the same program. I will then chose a specialty to train in and will diagnose and treat disease under the supervision of a physician as a colleague, not an adversary to thier philosophy of patient care.

It's not you..................really.

By Stargazer

I had to pass microbiology, organic chemistry, anatomy, physiology, and pathophysiology courses as prerequisites before I could even start nursing courses. Pharmacology, A&P and patho were major components of every class from OB to Advanced Med-Surg in class and we were tested on these constantly, in class and in clinical.

I took my anatomy, and micro at a 2 year college. Since those courses don't transfer outside of the ADN-BSN to any four-year institution I imagine they were inadequate to anything but a nursing program.

My program did stick some obligatory science in most of the classes, but they didn't test it or apply it to clinicals. Most of the students I talked to thought it was adequate, and they were quite relieved since it wasn't affecting thier grade. Boy are they in for a shock!

If I saw a program like the one you describe I would have looked into it, but would have wondered about its basis if OB was stressed. At my former program pediatrics and OB are entire semesters. In medical terms they are areas of specialty, not basic training.

I can hear the psychosocial train comin' round the moutain in those two rotations.:chuckle

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

Peeps:

I really appreciated your original post in this thread and I agree with much I have read in the responses. Personally, I am old and got my BSN in the 1970's. My program was very balanced between the hard sciences that you prefer and the "softer" social sciences, and humanities that drive you crazy. Also, we had plenty of choices in our electives so that students could choose to emphasize the aspects of nursing they prefered and develop sub-fields of expertise.

It sounds like your program is not nearly so balanced. I hope you find a program (either in PA studies or something else) that meets your needs.

On a side note ... it still surprises me -- and disappoints me a little -- that so many people still think of nursing as a "medical career." The public (and prospective students) still think of "health care" as being synonomous with "medical care" -- not realizing that each different discipline is truly a separate discipline.

llg

From Drkate

Glad to hear you found the courage to make the change. It's often hard for those of us who are comfortable and suited to nursing to realize that some people are not. It cna be equally hard to know of you're staying or leaving for a reason other than inertia or fear.

Good insight into the dilemma.

I felt like a "quitter" when I thought that I might not stay in nursing. The more I tried to fit in, the more isolated by my beliefs I became.

In my second year of prerequisites when I faced developmental psychology for the first of 3 tries(I was 4.0 in science) I thought that it must be an attitude problem. the other students not only seemed to be enjoying it, but excceling at it. These same students barely scrapped by in the sciences and loathed them, but just loved psychology.

After observing that phenomenon in all psychology classes, and experiencing the same lack of apptitude for the heavily weighted nursing classes, I decided that the possibility of getting through it without "buying in" to the psychosocial basis of all things was remote. Skimming the classes with medical sounding names like pharmacology, physical assessment, and medication administration helped me make a decision that was based on sound reasoning.

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur

By Fergus51

Looking at 2 semesters of calculus and 2 of organic chem..............I will take that luck, youbetcha;)

The introduction of science in the second year would be too little too late for me. The basis of the program is set. A program that is saying "psychosocial issues are more important than medical ones" would stress the "touchy-feely" in the first year. I think that's what your program is saying and I know that's what my program is saying. The exams heavily weighted questions to favor psychology and reward the student that thinks along those lines first.

I got a "B" by simply erring on the sappy side of the question. If there was a roll-your-eyes touchy-feely answer you could just ignore the possible science.

Yup, I was guessing.:chuckle

So are you just finishing the first year? Our first year was so touchy feely because we didn't have any experience in clinical yet. We learned our skills in the lab, and did a geriatric rotation for the whole second semestre. I almost died. I swear, some of your posts could be me during that time!:roll Luckily in second year we started spending half our time in clinical and taking pathophys and pharm, with only one touchy feely course! By our final semestre we only had 2 weeks of class before going out to do our practicum. I probably would have changed to another field of study after the first year (especially if the next 3 were more of the same!), but didn't have the resources. Turned out well for me, but I know some of my classmates did regret going into nursing. I am sure PA school will be interesting.

Peeps:

Just a thought, but it seems to me that you need some "touchy-feely" ability to work with people. A person is not just a medical diagnosis. One thing I look for in a physician is the ability of that person to talk with me, as well as good diagnostic skills.

When my father had bypass surgery, my step-mother picked a doctor with zero people skills. When my father suffered a stroke during surgery, which the doctor took two days to diagnose because he wouldn't listen to my cousin who is a nurse tell him something was wrong with my father, I wanted to sue the pants off the doctor. My father changed doctors to someone who diagnosed an abdominal aneurysm and followed him until it was time for surgery. This doctor was just wonderful. He even let me come into the exam room with my father and explained everything that he was doing. He could have screwed up big time, but I wouldn't have sued him because I knew he would have done his best.

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur

If I saw a program like the one you describe I would have looked into it, but would have wondered about its basis if OB was stressed. At my former program pediatrics and OB are entire semesters. In medical terms they are areas of specialty, not basic training.

My program didn't "stress" OB, but yes, OB and Peds were each separate clinical rotations. I believe this is the same in medical school, respiratory therapy programs, etc. You could posit that OB is a specialty area of training, I suppose, but I would really have to argue that anyone who calls themselves "nurse" or "Doctor" should not be completely unable to treat a pediatric patient without first undergoing extensive post-graduate training.
My program totaly skimmed the physical assessment and insisted that we were making a nursing assessment instead. We focused on therapeutic communication and psychosocial history taking.

Another example of weak curicculum was that we were taught correct placement of the auscultation points but not how to analyze the sounds we heard, or what they meant to the patient's physical needs, and the possible pathophysiology behind them. Big woop! I know were to auscultate, and if your lucky, how to describe it in the notes, but I don't really know how that relates to the medical model or what to do with the information.

Yeah, your program sucked, period. Assessment was heavily stressed in my program, and I firmly believe that it is the cornerstone of everything you do or plan for your patient. How do you know if there's been a critical (or subtle) change in your patient if you haven't done a thorough assessement first? One of our big milestones came at the end of Med-Surg I, where our clinical instructor chose a random patient for us--one we'd never seen before--and we had approximately 30 minutes to do a thorough head-to-toe physical assessement on him/her (with our instructor watching) and document it. Nerve-wracking, but valuable.

Again, I'm sorry you got stuck in a sucky program, and I think that program is doing ALL of its students (not just the science geeks) a critical desservice; but I'd like to reiterate that your experiences are not necessarily applicable to all, or even most, nursing programs. Hopefully this thread will help educate potential nursing students on the kind of questions they should be asking before enrolling in any program. Good luck to you.

I agree with gonnabeanurse. The whole reason I chose to go to nursing school is because I want to help people, but not just medically. Nursing is all about treating the whole person. I figure if you want to help them, but not be all "touchy feely" with them, be a doctor.

:nurse:

aimee

Peeps,

WOW!!, the last testamonial I read as powerful as yours started with "Friends, Romans, Countrymen lend me your ears". :) Very few people have what it takes to stand up to the nursing profession and say either I don't like this program or I this is not for me. I admire that , while I have enjoyed the last 3 years in a diploma program (Ontario) your ADN or something like it I have to agree it is not for everyone.

I however, like the program for the exact reason you don't while we had a good deal of science it was a patient focused, assessment based program and while these skills require critical thinking and common sense they are however just what I was looking for, I hope you do find the health care field you will be happy in.

Mito

Yeah Peeps, I agree with the others that your program totally sucks a$$. I actually go to a nursing program at a university that is very well known for engineering and technology, so my program is really heavy on the science. We have to do a full head to toe assessment while professors watch behind a two-way mirror (which is the same thing the PA students do)! Yes, I still have the psych classes too, but I like those as well. While psychology isn't calculus or organic chemistry, it is still science and based on research. I had the option of going into research but it is because I enjoy the psychosocial aspects as well as the medical and science aspects that I went into a health care field and didn't become a lab rat!

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

Peeps:

A lot of people have contributed some valuable thoughts to this thread. Again, I thank you for initiating it. While nursing (or maybe, just your particular program) may not be for you, I hope you can someday learn to respect nursing for its inclusion of NOT ONLY the physical sciences, BUT ALSO the social sciences and the humanities.

Some people who are oriented and/or educated in the physical science develop an attitude that only the physical sciences are legitimate and that everything else is BAD science. The social sciences and the humanities are quite legitimate fields of study and they address very real aspects of human existence. They are, as you well know, much more "murky" and imprecise. Human behavior and emotions are much less conisistent and much more difficult to control and study than are chemicals, cells, and other physical things that can be isolated in a lab.

I hope you can someday see the value in all fields of study and all disciplines even though you can recognize their differences -- and find the one that's right for you.

llg

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur

and one lonely little chemistry course

dang... did I ever go to the wrong school. I had to take Chem I&II, Organic Chem and Biochem.

:eek:

I admire you for redirecting yourself... it's too easy to just stick with a familiar path.

Specializes in LTC, ER, ICU,.

peeps, if nothing else, you are intriguing, impressive, elucidate yourself with words well and peek interests from a variety of subjects, i see you as being an educator who will spark the desire to learn. with your dirive, why pa, why not md?

is your school accredited? i am wondering because you said your sicences wil not tramsfer.

the biology, a&p i and a&p ii, micro, finite math, intermediate math, and the 3 psychology classes and the other classes i took will all transfer to a major university as i attend a community college.

the science courses mentioned above helps one to succed in nursing school and to understand the medical diagnosis. with that said, i fail to believe you enter the nursing program blind under the assumption that nurses would end up being a biologist, chemistry, and certainly not a physician?

why not complete your nursing studies and build upon your final goal.

i really feel you get bored easily when you understand the subject at hand and do not have to struggle with it.

why do i say this, i remember your psychology thread. :)

i do wish you all the best in your endeavors and do believe whatever you so choose, you will do fine.

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