For-profit, nonselective NP programs are becoming more and more popular, and I wanted to share my thoughts and what I have learned from my experience and the experience of others.
Updated:
The difference between nurse practitioner (NP) programs has become a topic of interest, and for good reason. I am going to highlight some of the significant differences between the NP Program that I attended and the program attended by three friends. To provide some background information, the program I completed is a highly rated NP Program from a nonprofit, selective university. My NP Program holds a high ranking on US News & World Report and is considered one of the best in the state. Three of my friends attended one of the largest, for-profit, nonselective nursing universities in the United States.
Within the first year of each of us starting our NP Program, it became apparent that the grading standards and effort required of each of us varied significantly. These variations and inconsistencies grew as we navigated towards graduation. During the more difficult semesters in my own DNP program, I was putting in 100 or more hours for each proctored exam to earn the 85% minimum passing grade. I became frustrated with how easily my friends seemed to pass the classes in their programs, while my program seemed to require endless hours of nonstop studying, isolation, and sacrifice.
My friends and I frequently shared advice on studying methods, time management, and textbook resources. It wasn't until I was asked to read over a friend's research paper for a health policy course that I had to question the integrity of these for-profit, nonselective NP programs. My friend's paper was written at a remedial level of English, with multiple grammatical and punctuation errors. I was stunned. This was the work of a second-year GRADUATE nursing student. I returned my friend's paper with a list of recommended edits and revisions. She thanked me but dismissed my comments, stating that her school did not require "any of those things" and that she had received near-perfect scores on her previous papers. The edits I recommended included the proper use of 'their' and 'there,’ corrections for run-on and fragmented sentences, comma placement, misspelled words, and APA citations. She ultimately decided not to apply my corrections and submitted her paper as it was. I was shocked when she received yet another 'A' to add to her academic repertoire. Meanwhile, my professors returned papers ungraded if there was an extra space at the end of a paragraph. What was happening?
For-profit, nonselective NP programs have become popular, albeit expensive, avenues to obtain a nurse practitioner degree. Admission requirements are minimal. There are no admissions essays. No letters of recommendation are needed. The minimum GPA requirement is lower than that of a selective program, and there are exceptions available if a student does not meet the minimum GPA.
The coursework in for-profit, nonselective NP programs is also different. While turning in a poorly written paper in a nonprofit, selective NP course will get the student a quick referral to the writing lab with a mandatory re-write, the same poorly written paper in a nonselective NP course may earn the student an 'A.’ This would be less concerning if the instructors provided detailed feedback about the mistakes made and how to correct them. From what I have witnessed, these students either continue to make the same writing errors or rely on the 'copy' and 'paste' functions to complete their notes after they transition to clinical practice.
The exams in a for-profit, nonselective NP Program do not carry the same weighted grades as they do in selective NP programs. For example, a student can fail every proctored exam with a score as low as zero in a nonselective program and still pass the class with an 80%. In contrast, courses in a selective NP Program consist of exam scores only. NP courses in for-profit, nonselective programs are graded using an 80/20 ratio of assignments and exams, with exams making up only 20% of the total grade. It is not uncommon for students in these nonselective NP programs to fail (receive a score less than 80%) half or more of their exams and still go on to graduate.
What is surprising to me is that many intelligent and competent nurses intentionally choose for-profit, nonselective NP programs from a pool of higher quality, lower-cost programs. What is the appeal? Is it the simplicity of the admissions process? Are they intimidated by the competitive programs? Do they think the program will be too difficult?
An internet search for NP programs will produce several heavily advertised for-profit, nonselective programs. These schools allocate more money to marketing and recruitment efforts than they do to hiring and retaining well-qualified, experienced faculty. I find this highly concerning. The quality of the faculty may be the reason that some students are graduating from NP programs with subpar writing skills and enough clinical knowledge to pass the board exam but not much else. It is no wonder why most for-profit, nonselective schools provide high-priced, intense board review prep courses to all their NP students after graduation. Passing rates would surely decline without this provision.
Recruiters and employers seldomly know the difference in quality between NP programs, which I found highly frustrating. This could be good or bad, depending on the individual's education, skills, and abilities. This idea that all nurse practitioners are held to the same standard is both inaccurate and harmful. What that standard IS remains the concern. It is especially disappointing to share my degree - a degree that I hold in high esteem - with others who have poor reading and writing abilities.
Several articles have been published in the last two years questioning the quality of NP education. The perceived level of difficulty in nurse practitioner programs has been under fire, as physicians have been skeptical of the NP student's ability to be employed full-time while attending a full-time program. This criticism hurts us all, as it implies that NP programs have become too easy. While I take offense to this, I cannot say that this is entirely off-base. I attended a nonprofit, selective NP Program. My program was not easy in any aspect. No students were permitted to fail an exam without failing the class. My professors rarely awarded grades of 100% to ANY student on ANY assignment. Papers with grammar and punctuation errors were not accepted, let alone graded. There were approximately 36 students in my graduating class. In contrast, my friends were among a graduating class of more than 600.
I understand that nurse practitioners do not have to be high-performing academic scholars to be good providers. However, for-profit, nonselective schools may negatively impact our profession in the future. The reality is that nonselective NP programs are graduating far more nurse practitioners than selective programs. That is not surprising when you consider that nonprofit NP programs are competitive and have a low acceptance rate, while most for-profit NP programs have 90-100% acceptance rates. The for-profit, nonselective NP programs are not just attracting nurses with lower GPAs. Despite the comparatively higher cost of attendance, these programs attract nurses with high GPAs, as well. When the entry-level pay for nurse practitioners does not factor in the student's program, there is little incentive to attend a selective school that is historically more difficult and will require more effort. This negates the work of those of us graduating from reputable programs. This can and does affect NP entry-level salaries and negotiating power. This can damage the credibility of new nurse practitioners. This directly affects our campaign to obtain full practice authority in all states. This trend is something we need to put to an end.
1 hour ago, Numenor said:I agree, I have seen more motivated and intelligent young college or high school kids coming through than NP students. Almost all heading to PA or med school.
I am not trying to stereotype but many of the NP students I have had, honestly have no business being in a graduate program meant for provider matriculation. Many have obviously way too many things going on at home (single parents etc) and NP school was sort of wedged in their already busy lives. Therefore they naturally gravitated to the easiest low effort/commitment programs expecting some tangible positive result. I’ve seen final years students not even know basic classes of antibiotics or anti hypertensives. Basic science knowledge or even anatomy is non existent. I have no other where people get the notion they will be competent providers in programs that are go at your own pace with little supervision and less hours then RN school.
I agree on all this but I will say my anatomy knowledge has decreased over the past two years LOL, esp in the nitpicky MSK realm.
18 hours ago, aok7 said:I am afraid we as a profession have already solidified our reputation. Just imagine any medical or PA school opening their doors to anyone interested with minimum standards? And then promoting students onward with such broad and flimsy requirements...to where among students there can be an argument of whether written and verbal professional communication skills are necessary! And if instead of ensuring solid science core and clinical competency skills were met in clinical setting that instead sending a message of confidence ruled? The old "fake it!" and "act like you know what you are doing" permeated?
The NP identity just is not in-and-of-itself able to represent and carry us. We have to work and prove our worth unlike those with whom we are supposed to stand among. And actually we have to work even harder now at baseline, as there is no longer even a question of the implosion of our profession due. It is a tragedy we have created ourselves.
I feel sad for the NPs attending for-profit and other sub-par schools, but at some point this has got to change. I mean, we each need to ask ourselves if we would want to be seeing ourselves if we were the patient with the particular complaint. And start from here in a very painful way of probably closing down many schools who do not provide outcomes and limiting student number in general to match actual availability of quality instructors and clinical staff.
What is it that is used to typify a school as good versus bad versus somewhere in the middle? I mean in all honesty the highest ranked medical schools and residencies do not exactly outperform ones not ranked in the top bit. Also some residency and fellowship programs (in medicine at least) are considered top, yet a different residency under the same institution may be considered not great.
Medicine is heavily flawed also though, top rank is usually determined by research output, not necessarily clinical training. The latter also comes at the cost of the former since there are only so many hours in a day.
8 minutes ago, Numenor said:I make exceptions for anatomy mostly, it's definitely a diminishing knowledge realm for most LOL. It's too hard to remember.
tis better to have learned and forgotten than to never have learned at all.
Actually I just made that up from the meme where the dog eats its food and throws it back up with the title "is better to have eaten it and thrown it back up than to not have eaten it at all"
1 minute ago, Tegridy said:tis better to have learned and forgotten than to never have learned at all.
Actually I just made that up from the meme where the dog eats its food and throws it back up with the title "is better to have eaten it and thrown it back up than to not have eaten it at all"
I think this applies to life in general haha. You just have to know where to look and have vaguely recalled the term before. Good enough.
2 minutes ago, Numenor said:I think this applies to life in general haha. You just have to know where to look and have vaguely recalled the term before. Good enough.
No doubt, and the guidelines change so frequently it is hard to not look everything up every few months to make sure your previous correct is not currently "old knowledge."
Like that new pancreatitis guideline saying to use less fluid now ahhhh.
But I am not sure the previously discussed schools in this post teach enough information to humble the students.
40 minutes ago, Tegridy said:No doubt, and the guidelines change so frequently it is hard to not look everything up every few months to make sure your previous correct is not currently "old knowledge."
Like that new pancreatitis guideline saying to use less fluid now ahhhh.
But I am not sure the previously discussed schools in this post teach enough information to humble the students.
I 100% have to recheck IDSA guidelines every so often because yeah o knowledge gets out of date pretty fast. The pancreatitis thing threw me for a loop as well.
On 10/3/2022 at 8:05 PM, call_me_Glen said:Can you elaborate more on your clinical experience? As in where it was or how you secured it? What made it outstanding and how to find similar education as a prospective student?
My clinical program did not provide the opportunities, we had to find a preceptor and then get the contract for the school signed by the facility- so that was a pain. I had worked with a NP when I was a floor nurse and this particular NP wrote the best admission notes and plans of care that I read when caring for patients. I knew that when I was practicing, that's what I wanted people to think of my work, so I contacted him and asked whether he would take me as a student. I was the first NP student he had and he was a natural teacher. Every night he had me complete my admission first and then we would go through step by step the plan of care and he even prepared other lessons for me when we had downtime. It was night shift, so we had down time to go over stuff in detail, most of the time, and I had his full attention. During that rotation I met the emergency room MD and the intensivists that also agreed to work with me. I also ended up doing rotations in nephrology and vascular surgery because I was fortunate enough to meet MDs that were passionate about teaching students and willing to spend some time with me. Every preceptor I had went above and beyond to give me reference materials, involve me in whatever they could as far as interesting cases to see and learn about. I really lucked out. I wish I could say that there was something special I did so everyone else could have such a great experience but I really think I was just lucky.
19 hours ago, Tegridy said:What is it that is used to typify a school as good versus bad versus somewhere in the middle? I mean in all honesty the highest ranked medical schools and residencies do not exactly outperform ones not ranked in the top bit. Also some residency and fellowship programs (in medicine at least) are considered top, yet a different residency under the same institution may be considered not great.
Medicine is heavily flawed also though, top rank is usually determined by research output, not necessarily clinical training. The latter also comes at the cost of the former since there are only so many hours in a day.
Just because medical training may be slipping has nothing to do with our need to raise our educational and testing standards. Medical students don't have online classes, at least none that I could find in the USA outside of the pandemic times. They are offered in other countries. Medical students don't have to find their own preceptors. Their education is not dumbed down to accomodate students' other roles in life. You have to take it on as it is offered to you. It's not going to accomodate your other roles in your life. We can do better even if we offer part-time programs. Literally, almost everyone thinks they can become a NP and yes, anyone can become an NP and that's just wrong.
5 hours ago, JBMmom said:My clinical program did not provide the opportunities, we had to find a preceptor and then get the contract for the school signed by the facility- so that was a pain. I had worked with a NP when I was a floor nurse and this particular NP wrote the best admission notes and plans of care that I read when caring for patients. I knew that when I was practicing, that's what I wanted people to think of my work, so I contacted him and asked whether he would take me as a student. I was the first NP student he had and he was a natural teacher. Every night he had me complete my admission first and then we would go through step by step the plan of care and he even prepared other lessons for me when we had downtime. It was night shift, so we had down time to go over stuff in detail, most of the time, and I had his full attention. During that rotation I met the emergency room MD and the intensivists that also agreed to work with me. I also ended up doing rotations in nephrology and vascular surgery because I was fortunate enough to meet MDs that were passionate about teaching students and willing to spend some time with me. Every preceptor I had went above and beyond to give me reference materials, involve me in whatever they could as far as interesting cases to see and learn about. I really lucked out. I wish I could say that there was something special I did so everyone else could have such a great experience but I really think I was just lucky.
This exemplifies "school is what you make of it" and "you get out of it, what you put into it". I have 3 degrees and a post masters certificate from 4 different schools. They all offered something, and some had higher standards than others (one was a "for profit school"--never again!). My own standards are high and so I put in the work so as not to waste my own time and money.
However, I have noted that in graduate school there is a lot of writing and very little test-taking. Therefore, I feel the same as some others out there that people are getting by and are not submitting graduate level work. How can you publish and contribute to nursing as an advanced degree nurse and or practitioner if you cannot clearly and effectively express yourself via the written word? How about going to court with your documentation projected on a 10 foot screen so everyone can see your command (or lack) of the English language and your ability to intelligently and cogently express thoughts, diagnoses, prognoses, and other patient data?
I have seen some very poorly written papers and notes that make me wonder, how did this person get through grad school? These diploma mill schools need some serious intervention and oversight.
On 9/27/2022 at 10:12 PM, MentalKlarity said:My unpopular opinion: NP school is "soft" on hard sciences because half of nurse practitioner students would fail out, nursing schools would have to be more selective, and their cash cow funds would dry up. The for-profit programs, if they required students to take hard science before/during the program would have almost no students.
Maybe. but you don't use any of the 'hard sciences' when diagnosing and treating. Occasionally you will see something that you will have to look up, but if a patient presents with chest pain, you're not thinking about moles or Avogadro's number
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I agree, I have seen more motivated and intelligent young college or high school kids coming through than NP students. Almost all heading to PA or med school.
I am not trying to stereotype but many of the NP students I have had, honestly have no business being in a graduate program meant for provider matriculation. Many have obviously way too many things going on at home (single parents etc) and NP school was sort of wedged in their already busy lives. Therefore they naturally gravitated to the easiest low effort/commitment programs expecting some tangible positive result. I’ve seen final years students not even know basic classes of antibiotics or anti hypertensives. Basic science knowledge or even anatomy is non existent. I have no other where people get the notion they will be competent providers in programs that are go at your own pace with little supervision and less hours then RN school.