Failed Abortions

Kalico · Mar 14, 2006

I have never seen a "failed abortion". If a fetus is delivered, even if it is delivered alive, the abortion part worked. I have cared for many women undergoing second and third trimester "abortions" (often through induction) that were because of severe health issues. Several of those babies were born breathing and with a heart rate, but we provided comfort care only (wrapped the baby, held it, etc). These were all wanted children, not parents who just didn't get around to having the abortion earlier. They did not need NICU staff coming in and trying to save their baby and they have every right to refuse that treatment.
Timothy, I find that surprising. Texas is one of the few states that allows the termination of life support against a parent's wishes, but they insist on aggressive treatment for babies who have a terrible prognosis?

I understand what you are saying but I guess I am more questioning what your responsibility is as a nurse when the abortion is done simply because the child is not wanted and the fetus survives the procedure. At what point if any do we need to be an advocate for an otherwise completely healthy infant that is fighting to stay alive?

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Mar 14, 2006

Perhaps I'm naive and not had this experience, but I've never seen an "otherwise healthy infant" that is subject to an abortion and then survives. Abortions past 20w are really hard to get, and past viability even harder. If they're past viability, it's because the baby has a severe health issue or the mother has a severe health issue. I guess theoretically, it is possible, but an abortion at 24+ weeks is a) physically demanding/dangerous b) unlikely because why would she carry it for so long when it's perfectly healthy and she just decides out of the blue that she wants to get rid of it? Again, I mean it could happen, but it's just not logical.

I personally just cannot picture this particular possible scenario. Parents have the right to withdraw life support on children that are terminally ill, but they're not allowed to starve their healthy 2 week old. It's just not the same.

HeartsOpenWide, RN · Mar 14, 2006

I do not know about that, I have heard about this:

A woman who was scheduled to have her 22-week-along pregnancy ended at a Florida abortion clinic instead delivered the baby alive in a restroom and says her pleading for help from medical staff went unheeded, even when an employee saw that the tiny boy was moving.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43962

Includes pictures....not gory

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Mar 14, 2006

I tend to be highly suspicious of anything coming from worldnetdaily, as it is incredibly bias and frequently publishes wild claims.

Secondly, it was a 22w child prior to viability. Nothing could save that child. Well, I'll caveat that - occasionally 22 weekers survive, but they are by far the exception, not the rule.

There are a lot of holes in the story.

allnurses Guide · Mar 14, 2006

i read gianna's story a long time ago - very moving.

her book is still available on amazon or other online book clubs.

here is here website:

http://www.giannajessen.com/

here is her testimony before congress.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/survivors/giannajessen.asp

http://www.abortiontv.com/words/ggiannajessettestimony.htm

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2006

Lilpeanut summed it up. I can't imagine you are ever going to see an "otherwise healthy" baby delivered after an abortion who is "fighting to stay alive". Especially as a NICU nurse.... you just wouldn't be there. They don't call the NICU team to a delivery unless they want rescusitation. Like I said, I worked in one of the few hospitals that did late term abortions, and it was never for an otherwise healthy baby (that was when I worked L&D, not NICU). If this is something that really concerns you though, you can ask the hospital you plan on working for if they do late term abortions or if they do abortions at all (there are a lot of Catholic facilities out there that don't). I would actually think the places that do later term abortions are in the minority. Just to see what I'm talking about, phone a few places that offer abortion and tell them you're 28 weeks along but just don't want the baby anymore. I doubt you'll get very far.

OT, but that is really a phrase I don't get. "Fighting to stay alive" I mean. It's often used to justify forcing treatment onto babies. I've seen people use it to describe babies that the other 99% of the staff feels are desperately trying to die. Sometimes the treatment is a lot worse that death for the babies and their families. People who feel that agressive treatment is always the answer probably won't do well in a high acuity NICU because sometimes parents will choose to pursue comfort care only and that is their right. We don't have to agree with them to respect their decisions.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2006

I do not know about that, I have heard about this:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43962
Includes pictures....not gory

Nowhere are doctors or nurses forced to agressively treat 22 weekers. They are before the age of viability.

I do wonder about this story, partly because this doesn't look like a 22 weeker to me and partly because this woman sounds off.

dawngloves, BSN, RN · Mar 14, 2006

Nowhere are doctors or nurses forced to agressively treat 22 weekers. They are before the age of viability.
I do wonder about this story, partly because this doesn't look like a 22 weeker to me and partly because this woman sounds off.

Not exactly the New York Times is it? 22 weeker? That baby wouldn't last a week if it was.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2006

Not exactly the New York Times is it? 22 weeker? That baby wouldn't last a week if it was.

Exactly, but I'm sure there is a doctor or nurse or parent somewhere willing to try...

Kalico · Mar 14, 2006

Exactly, but I'm sure there is a doctor or nurse or parent somewhere willing to try...

Ok...just to let you guys know, I am not one for doing everything possible if the situation does not warrant it. I am glad to hear that you are able to do comfort cares on a child if the parents don't want anything done. I was more questioning what would happen if there was a viable infant after a failed abortion and you all have mainly said that that never happens. I also agree that there are people out there who would want everything under the sun done even when there is no hope. I get discouraged by this because I know there are times, lots of times, especially in NICU, where it is better to let the child go and I hope that I will have the strength to be a good patient advocate during these times and help the parents make that difficult decision.

Thank you all for your input on this highly controversial topic.

fergus51 · Mar 14, 2006

Sorry Liz, I didn't make that comment refering to you at all. Just a general comment about that story.

SteveNNP, MSN, NP · Mar 14, 2006

I really don't buy that story. I can't imagine a woman would consider a 2nd trimester abortion, but also plan it down to the details of his death, including the method that would cause the least pain. Either you believe that abortion inflicts pain on a living being in the process of terminating a beating heart and active brain waves, or you believe that you are simply eliminating a blob of tissue. If she cared so much about causing her "prenamed" baby boy so much pain while she had him killed, she wouldn't have decided to abort him. One couldn't possibly think about abortion that deeply without hating it. I don't mean to fire anyone up, but that's just my humble opinion. I say give 'em a chance. There are millions of couples who are trying to adopt.