Excelsior

LVNette · Nov 11, 2003

Spacenurse

Thanks for the information. I know a few people who wanted to know what the story is now. Thanks so much again:roll

pickledpepperRN · Nov 12, 2003

Originally posted by LVNette
Spacenurse

Thanks for the information. I know a few people who wanted to know what the story is now. Thanks so much again:roll

Thank Brownie.

She found the link!

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Nov 12, 2003

I'm sure we have all had experiences with nurses we could just not believe had actually passed nursing school, much less boards!

In order to complete the Excelsior program and even sit for the NCLEX, you have to pass the CPNE (which I understand is no picnic) and then pass the NCLEX to be an RN. Same criteria as the grads from other schools of nursing.

I've certainly seen my share of nurses who were pretty darned clueless. (And I'm talking stupid, here.) And some who were so incredible you wanted to stand back and applaud.

Shame to paint all EC grads with the brush that inept nurse handed you.

My understanding is that what school you attended doesn't matter to employers, so long as you were eligible to sit for and passed the NCLEX.

BTW, wonder if you could get around the California licensing issue by taking your boards in a state that has reciprocity with California, then applying for a California license? It would probably work until someone figured it out and adjusted the law--but that would open such a can of worms, I'm betting they wouldn't go that far. I can see a turf struggle coming between the NLN (which accredits EC) and state nursing boards...

LVN2RN04 · Feb 2, 2004

I have been working towards my RN as an LVN through Excelsior. The program I attended as an LVN has 380+ hours for clinical. But, I was surprised as well as upset that the BRN yanked the program as acceptable the way it was. However, it is another option for us LVN's to move ahead. The old adage goes; "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!"

Sheri257 · Feb 2, 2004

Speaking of California and Excelsior, apparently this issue will be up for consideration again at the board meeting this month:

The board agenda says they will talk about the lawsuit (Excelsior sued the BORN because of the above mentioned action) ...

And the December order will be reviewed for "clarification and modification," whatever that means.

pugluvnrn · Feb 4, 2004

In all honesty I have to say I have never had any exposure to the Excelsior class content so I have no information there.

I can say that I have had the displeasure of working with several Excelsior grads that had subclinical experience and whom I felt would hurt a patient some day due to their deficiencies.

Obviously, there is a problem or else the BRN would not have issued their new regulations. Excelsior can sue all they want but if there is documentation that these grads are lacking ( and I am sure there is, I myself wrote 10 typed pages on one individual and there are three other nurses who contributed) the BRN has justification on their ruling.

You just cannot subsitute internet for hands on patient care...oh yeah I posted this before and I was flamed by many an individual.

Guess what? The proof is in the pudding.

I am a graduate from a good old fashioned ADN program, I went from that to an RN -BSN program and I am currently in an MSN/NP program..all at a university that offers extended clinical...yes some classes are partially online but that is it.

I have a job waiting for me.

Our hospital now has a policy that they will not hire Excelsior graduates.

So...if anyone wants to flame me or contradict me, I don't care, I am just stating facts.

I work in pediatrics and we just can't compromise the health and well being of children by nurses who haven't been prepared.

Again, I invoke the BRN's decision not to recognize the Excelsior degree unless they have met the additional criteria ( 360 clinical hours, LVN for 1 year, and tested by an accredited school NOT Excelsior

After looking at the prices, I feel like it's buying a degree.

Just my opinion

And although I digress here...the excelsior grad that I attempted to precept was KICKED OFF MY FLOOR and sent to a general med surg floor where they felt she might be able to handle it.

I hear there have already been complaints.

No, I should not judge all Excelsior grads by this experience but do you think my hospital would refuse to hire these grads based on this alone?? Nope, the ED coodinator herself told me this was not the first time, and thats why they were putting the kibbutz on the EC grads.

Go ahead and flame away, I am not changing my opinion, nor will it change the fact that I am proud to be a masters student with extended clinical experiences, and that I took the long way around so I could fully educate myself in order to take the best care possible of my patients.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Feb 4, 2004

In all honesty I have to say I have never had any exposure to the Excelsior class content so I have no information there.

I am always amazed when someone admits up front they know nothing, then go on and on as though they do.

No, you cannot substitute on line for good old hands on patient care. And Excelsior doesn't do that. In fact, none of this is "on line." What Excelsior does is give the opportunity to prove the academic knowledge (just like you did in your wonderful traditional school, in your written tests), and then requires us to demonstrate that we know what we are doing clinically.

And we have to pass the NCLEX just like you and every competent and incompetent nurse out there.

Don't know where you get off generalizing. Maybe your attitude has something to do with how Excelsior grads come across to you?

I know the last person I'd want to be teamed up with is someone who admittedly knows nothing but is willing to force his/her opinion on someone else.

featherzRN, MSN · Feb 4, 2004

I graduated from Excelsior (then Regents) 15 years ago. I never had a problem with clinical skills and worked in the ICU for many years. I now work in an outpatient clinic and I manage to do just fine. I was an LVN with two years experience and completed the excelsior program in 6 months.

I've known many clueless new grads from regular programs as well, so I think the current hysteria over Excelsior grads may be due to the BON's recent rulings. In either case, I have never had a problem getting a job in any hospital.

Sheri257 · Feb 4, 2004

I'm going to have to stand up for Pug here, because I think this is wrong.

Pug isn't just throwing out some arbitrary opinion. This goes far beyond the usual "my school is better than your school" bashing that we typically see on this board.

Pug is making statements based upon her own personal experience as well as documented facts. Pug has worked with a new Excelsior grad who caused problems. Her hospital refuses to hire them. And other incidents, like this one, prompted the BORN to crack down on the school.

Pug obviously feels strongly about this subject, just as Excelsior students feel strongly about defending their school. But I don't think Pug should to be flamed every time she expresses her point of view, especially since some other major organizations agree with her.

Kaiser, perhaps the biggest health care organization in the state, three major California nursing associations and, of course, the California BORN all say there are problems with Excelsior. If anyone has any doubts about this, it's all documented in the BORN minutes.

I realize that you guys will probably disagree with all of these organizations and will defend Excelsior regardless. And you're certainly entitled to do that.

But let's give Pug a little consideration here. She certainly is not alone and, considering that there is evidence and some industry heavyweights who support her opinion, that's all the more reason why she should not be flamed for it.

LVN2RN04 · Feb 4, 2004

Thank you featherzRN and chris_at_lucas. I totally agree. If you don't know, don't force YOUR opinion about it! I have met plenty of grads from junior colleges and state colleges that have no clue of what to do. I also know 4 nurses that have graduated from Excelsior, and are honored at least once a year for their commendabe service to the hospital. Either by employee of the month, or physician elected excellence awards. So, I guess not all EC grads are terrible. These people are my coworkers. I believe it does depend on the person, not the school. Unfortunately, only the few "traditionally" educated people that have had a bad experience with an EC grad are bothered enough by this to share their story. Thanks, but no thanks.

Sheri257 · Feb 4, 2004

Originally posted by LVN2RN04
Unfortunately, only the few "traditionally" educated people that have had a bad experience with an EC grad are bothered enough by this to share their story. Thanks, but no thanks.

Look: I'm not against distance learning, In fact, I support it. And I agree that traditional colleges don't always do a great job either. You may be right that it ultimately does depend upon the individual.

But let's not distort the facts here. There seems to be more than a "few" people who have had similar experiences.

Presumably this is why Kaiser Permanente, the California Nurses Association, the United Nurses Association of California, and the Association of California Nurse Leaders testified against Excelsior during the BORN hearings last year.

http://www.rn.ca.gov/pdf/brdmins%20feb%206-7,2003.pdf

These organizations represent thousands of nurses and other health care professionals. Presumably they would not have testified against EC unless they had the support of at least some of their constituents.

Maybe there is some other explanation for all of these organizations opposing Excelsior, but the most obvious explanation is that there might, in fact, be a problem here.

Whatever the case may be, I just don't think you guys are being fair to Pug. She may not be familiar with the Excelsior cirriculum, but she, and her hospital, have dealt with what really matters: new Excelsior grads working out in the field. And, apparently, so have these other organizations.

Don't try to distort certain facts or, even worse, suggest that someone shouldn't post their opinion just because you don't like what they have to say. There are legitimate arguments on both sides, and both sides deserve fair consideration.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Feb 5, 2004

Okay--Pug said (somewhere up there) that Excelsior was a diploma mill. S/he said a lot of other stuff that constituted ad hominem argument, and attempted to back it up with her being in university to get her NP.

Good for her.

But perhaps she could learn to check the facts and write from her emotions less.

Here's a response to her crack about the diploma mill so many of us attend:

UPDATE: 12-05-03 The California Board of Registered Nursing (BRN) met December 5, 2003 to consider the recommendation of its Education/Licensing Committee to restrict the eligibility of Excelsior College graduates for licensure as RNs in that state. The BRN voted to accept the Committee's recommendation which will affect all students who enroll in Excelsior College's School of Nursing on or after December 6, 2003. In light of the decision of the California BRN and until or unless the decision is reversed, the College (1) will not encourage persons seeking to practice as RNs in California to enroll in our ADN program and (2) will not recommend that they take Nursing Concepts 1 & 2, either as practice tests or for credit.

This is from the Excelsior website.

If it were a diploma mill, all they would want is your money. that's not what this looks like.

BTW, this program is less expensive than any out of state tuition I've ever seen, including for the community colleges in Texas, where I live.

And the quality of the education is much better.

And the level of mental and emotional abuse is also lower.

First, do no harm......

I too, Pug, have been to "real" college. I guess I'm one up on you. I already have my masters. As well as a license to practice.

I'm outta here.