ethics lecture rant (sensitive topic)

[Ginyer]

Today our lecture was on ethics and values in nursing care. We were discussing abortions and our teacher was explaining to us that we can refuse to care for a patient if say they are in the hospital because of a serious medical problem due to an abortion. The discussion got a little heated (personally I wouldn't try and refuse to care for anyone unless I felt threatened in some way) but some of the students in my class explained they would never care for a patient who was in the hospital from a problem with an abortion unless obviously no one was available to take over that pt's care. I was surprised a few students felt so strongly about this. I thought a big part of nursing care is to not pass judgement and be as accepting as possible. I realize we're only human but personally I feel that if you have reservations about treating certain pt's because they believe in something you don't...or they have acted in a way that you feel is against your own morals, you're in the wrong profession.

Anyway...a little fired up from the lecture still and wondering how you guys feel about passing a pt on to another nurse and reasons that would make you refuse care to for someone.

(no abortion arguments please)

Ginyer

[fergus51]

I hate the word "orientate"! Of course, I get teased at work for saying "tuque", so who am I to judge?:)

[JVanRN]

I hate the word "irregardless" Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! and "Orientate" but i'm confused what is "tuque"?

[fergus51]

Tuque is the wool hat you wear in the winter.

[targa]

I didn't miss your point. I merely chose to convey that no one is going to consider your point if it is delivered in such a judgmental, intolerant fashion.

I understand that it was not your intention to sound contemptuous or rude. However, you made several disparaging remarks which most of the readers here interpreted as such.

So, specifically, was the DNR botched due to poor spelling or grammar? If grammar or spelling was not directly at the root of the communication error then your argument is non-sequitur, I believe.

Your point is, roughly, "poor grammar and spelling (specific) contribute to poor communication (general)... here is an example of how poor communication led to a bad patient outcome (DNR story) therefore poor grammar and spelling can lead to poor patient outcomes".

I was actually thinking about going into human rights law myself but if this is the type of discourse I can expect maybe second thoughts are in order! :stone

Well, it seems some clouds have crept into Bluesky's sunny disposition.

It seems you're the only one, Blue, who believes that my opinion was delivered in a "judgmental, intolerant" fashion. And I didn't know you spoke for all of the people who have viewed this thread (more than 1700 views at last count). But I digress....

As for the DNR case... there is a confidentiality order (sought by the hospital), so I must be extremely vague, but it involved poor syntax (the proper arrangement of words) on the part of one nurse, which led another nurse to conclude something that wasn't true, with a healthy dose of other errors throw in for good measure, which led to the patient being allowed to expire. I would love to write exactly what was written, which started the chain of events, but I would be violating the Rules of Professional Conduct by doing so, so I won't. So yes... it was grammatical, in the beginning.

As for your getting a law degree (perhaps you have one already) and practicing "human rights law" (and maybe you mean "civil rights law"), all I can say is... if you think doctors are pompous, arrogant, and power-mad, then you've never met a federal judge. And wait til you meet your opposing counsel... LOL... you have no idea what you're getting yourself into.

[JVanRN]

Tuque is the wool hat you wear in the winter.

Oh okay. No need for that down here so I guess I wouln't know what that meant. Is that a Canadian word or something? (arent' you canadian?) anyways alot of canadian nurses here refer to jackets as parkas...i think that is kind of funny. I'm not knocking Canadian people at all so please no one take it that way. (My mom herself was born and raised in Quebec...so I have lots of family up there) Anyway I'm waaaayyyy of topic here. Sorry...considering I sorta said somthing semi rude to Targa for posting off topic.

[fergus51]

I think it is a Canadianism. I have yet to meet an American who knew what it meant. I assume it was a french word, so your mom would probably know what it meant:)

[Ted]

a reminder:

especially during heated or "sensative" discussions, please keep the focus on the topic and not your fellow bulletin board member. personal attacks are not tolerated on this bulletin board.

the allnurses.com staff

[underwatergirl]

Wow, interesting topic...I never had topics like this in school, my school taught us that we must understand what our personal bias are towards so when we are presented with them in clinical settings that we are aware therefore not biased...there is always going to be people who we don't agree with lifestyle choices or we maybe biased too...however it is our responsibility as nurses to see our biased and understand it so it doesn't come to the surface and affect our care.

I work in a Hematology/Oncology Clinic, I remember my first HIV Positive patition, at least one I knew about...I couldn't believe the wall I had to break thru just to get a BP on this man. There was my biased, amazingly I am educated and knowledgeable regarding HIV I know the transmission ways but yet I was scared to touch him. I collected myself and moved forward with my duty. But here was another biased I learned about...the amazing thing is...I met an amazing, sweet person...who is now one of my fav. patients, each time he comes into the clinic. Now if I let that bias stand in my way...I would have lost out on this great relationship...I am glad I didn't.

As for people who are against particular things...or are biased to them, work thru it so you never miss out on meetting some great person...someone said it right....don't speak out against something unless you have been there...because as humans and as nurses we need to evaluate our belief's, recognize which ones hinder us and change the ones that need to be changed...think about how many belief's you have had in your life that changed because of one thing or another....I can think of 3 huge ones, I will be forever different and a better person for changing them....basically I walked in the shoes, I get it now.

When you walk thru the door of your employeement, you must find the ability to drop your individual belief's and be a nurse....a nurse isn't biased doesn't show favortism, treats all patients a like!

[ldkrn]

It wouldn't bother me to care for a patient who had an abortion, but then I am fanatically pro-choice. I do think that one ought to be able to put one's personal views aside when caring for anyone, although it is only reasonable not to put yourself in an obvious situation where those views might be seriously compromised-if you're virulently anti-abortion or against stem cell research, then you probably shouldn't be working in OB areas. I remember years ago when I was working in New Orleans, in an ICU that was right near a maximum security lockup-we got all kinds of patients from the prison, gunshot wounds, stabbings-nearly every other bed had a guard assigned to it. The officers could be very rude to not only the patients but also the staff-they would say things to us like how could we stand to care for these people, they're scum, we're wasting our time, don't be so nice to them, etc. I finally got sick of it and said to one of them, "Look, I don't care if Adolf Hitler is in this bed, I'm going to care for him exactly the same way I would care for Mother Teresa." That shut him up for a little while but that's basically how I feel.

[Kyriaka]

I am shocked people would have a problem with this.

As said, are nurses not going to treat people with heart disease if they are overweight??

[Toddbe]

If one cannot put aside her/his personal convictions and do the job required (i.e., care for the patient without regard to the nature and/or origin of the underlying condition), then one needs to find another line of work. It's that simple.

I don't believe it is 'that simple'. Why is it as nurses we need to respect and value everyone else believes, rites, values, wishes, desires, and so forth, but we must set ours aside?

Who is going to care for me (you), if I do not? If a situation is going to cause me (you) mental anguish sould I(you) not avoid it, if possible. Should we not assist our peers in doing the same?

I am a Charge Nurse in a 36 bed Level One - Critical Care/ICU. I recognize that not everybody is able to tolerate or 'deal with' certain situations. If a nurse comes to me and says 'I cannot / prefer not / desire not / or whatever ' not to care for this patient, I do everything possible to change the assignment, even if that means that I care for that patient until other arrangment can be made.

As a PROFESSION we need to stop belittling, tearing down and being aggressive toward each other. We are all simply human and have areas in our lives that may be difficult to deal with and we should respect that in the other person and assist our peers. Do we ask any less than this with our interaction and caring for our patients? Why should we have any less respect and understanding with our peers?

Feel free now to continue the unremitting level of disrespect!

[superschoolnurse]

During my surgical rotation in nursing school I was faced with this exact situation. One of the surgical nurses asked if I minded assisting on an abortion; all of the other nurses in surgery and recovery refused to have any thing to do with a patient who had an abortion. This particular patient had her pap smear show cancerous cells so we had to do a biopsy first which meant more time under anethesia, re-positioning her and then prepping her for the abortion. I was appalled at the lack of professionalism that the staff showed by refusing to even go near this patient! This one single nurse had to prep the surgery suite, assist in the biopsy and abortion, recover the patient and then clean the surgery suite because even the cleaning crew refused to be involved! Of course I did what needed to be done, this lady was a patient and I was one of her (student) nurses. I vowed right then and there that I would never look down my nose and judge a patient no matter what their diagnoses or treatment plan! I believe that if you are going to work in a hospital where you never know what will type of patient will cross your path then you should not refuse to work on certain patients or procedures. Nursing is such a varied profession that there are plenty of job opportunities to choose from if you feel the need to be particular. Good luck in your nursing career! :)