EMT-Practitioner

Mr. Hat · May 27, 2008

Wow, I am getting NO SUPPORT from you guys!!!!

You're telling me stuff like EMTs don't even have the foundational knowledge needed to function as RNs, and that this is a bad idea as it would screw RNs out of your well earned jobs.

Funny, but for some reason all these arguments you folks are making sound vaguely familiar to me.... but I just can't think of where else I might have heard them...... Huh.

racing-mom4, BSN, RN · May 27, 2008

Funny, but for some reason all these arguments you folks are making sound vaguely familiar to me.... but I just can't think of where else I might have heard them...... Huh.

I dont really know what that quote means---but I do know that an EMT and an RN are about as similar as a CNA and an RN. I think there are many CNAs that would make an excellent nurse, but they must complete the schooling to do such. I dont think because you have assisted in an ER your qualified to work in an RN capacity.

If an EMT wants to work as an RN, there are many avenues to take to acheive that goal, but one semester or even one year of school does not even come close.

It is almost like your trying to minimize what we do and how hard of work we did to get to where we are.

HoyaTech · May 27, 2008

in certain states EMT-Bs can place IVs, but all they can give is NS. Also, what a ER tech can do varies by hospital. As an ER tech in DC, I can start IVs, draw blood, give NS, EKGs, splint, place foleys, give oxygen, vitals, etc. Some of the techs are nursing students or paramedic students, and they also have ACLS and PALS, though that doesn't increase your scope of practice.

I think an EMT-Practitioner would make sense, and what the OP is alluding to is the use of NPs/PAs, who are able to perform many of the functions of a physician, yet are not physicians. BSN school provides the basic foundation to function as an NP (with a basic understanding of pathophysiology, pharm, assessment, etc), and NP school provides the advanced courses necessary to function as a clinician and diagnose. It's a little more difficult with the EMT-B to EMT-Practitioner, b/c EMT-Bs don't really get pathophysiology, and the anatomy/physiology learned is very basic. I don't think a semester would be enough, but a year long program for EMTs would work, depending on courses. It wouldn't be for EMTs to become a nurse, but to provide many/most of the functions and assessments of a nurse to help with the shortage. This is similar to NPs/PAs not wanting to become physicians, but providing many/most of the functions of MDs/DOs to provide care in many settings.

HoyaTech · May 27, 2008

Oh yeah and with your idea not everybody wins... us nurses would be out of work if they could send an EMT to school for a semester to be a "practitioner". Who in the world would want to hire us when, just like you said, they could get the job done for less money? A petition like that would just be shooting ourselves in the foot, not to mention devaluing our education and the job we do on a daily basis.

This is actually what some physicians say. A BSN/RN can go to school for another two years to become a practitioner, and they feel that it devalues their education and time spent to become what they are. Who would want to hire a family medicine physician when you can hire an FNP who gets paid less but who functions in a similar way to the MD/DO? Same with CRNA vs. anesthesiologist.

hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN · May 27, 2008

They sure as heck can at my hospital and the other dozen or so within our system....

That is hospital-specific training and not within their scopes of practice as EMT-B's. Those skills very definitely are not taught at an EMT-Basic level.

Additionally, while many hospitals hire EMTs as techs, they aren't working under their license in a facility. They are considered unlicensed personnel.

That's how it is in Texas, at least. And my current hospital only hires EMT-I or P in the ER specifically because they've had formal training in such skills.

hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN · May 27, 2008

Wow, I am getting NO SUPPORT from you guys!!!!
You're telling me stuff like EMTs don't even have the foundational knowledge needed to function as RNs, and that this is a bad idea as it would screw RNs out of your well earned jobs.
Funny, but for some reason all these arguments you folks are making sound vaguely familiar to me.... but I just can't think of where else I might have heard them...... Huh.

Ah, so you're a pre-med troll attempting to make some sort of point regarding the mid-levels? Why didn't you say so?

HoyaTech · May 27, 2008

That is hospital-specific training and not within their scopes of practice as EMT-B's. Those skills very definitely are not taught at an EMT-Basic level.
Additionally, while many hospitals hire EMTs as techs, they aren't working under their license in a facility. They are considered unlicensed personnel.
That's how it is in Texas, at least. And my current hospital only hires EMT-I or P in the ER specifically because they've had formal training in such skills.

yeah this is how it is @ my hospital. the weird thing is that they dropped the requirement to be an EMT, and all you need is BLS, which I think is a little stupid. Though IV insertion is allowed in the EMT-B scope of practice in DC. Also, if you're an EMT/medic, you're allowed to start oxygen if necessary, as well as suction.

Mr. Hat · May 27, 2008

Ah, so you're a pre-med troll attempting to make some sort of point regarding the mid-levels? Why didn't you say so?

I am in no way opposed to mid-levels functioning as such. Our healthcare system would be worse off without them, no question.

hypocaffeinemia, BSN, RN · May 27, 2008

I am in no way opposed to mid-levels functioning as such. Our healthcare system would be worse off without them, no question.

So what's your point, then? Out with it. I can infer it fairly clearly, but for the benefit of the audience at home, you should state it.

RN1980 · May 27, 2008

Nursing is without a doubt one of the most important jobs a person can undertake. I have personally been blessed by many wonderful nurses. Unfortunately there is a problem....
As we all know, there is a major nursing shortage which is expected to get much worse over the next several years. I have come up with an idea that will help alleviate this problem, especially benefitting underserved areas, particularly in primary care. I would love to collect your support and send a petition to congress and various medical organizations - please "sign" via your positive reply to my post.
My idea is the creation of the EMT-Practitioner program. Many of you are already aware that many EMTs function as Techs at Emergency Departments around the country. EMTs are already allowed to do many "nursing functions" including but not limited to: wound care, EKGs, IVs and lab draws, foley catheter insertions and removals, splinting, BLS, providing patient care and comfort, and so on. Techs are not allowed to administer medications, give shots, or do nursing assessments. They also do not have ACLS/PALS etc. However, I think with a little additional training, EMTs could do most of these things in 99.9999% of cases within the primary care setting.
Following is my proposed 1 semester, 15 credit hour program allowing EMT-Basics to become EMT-Practitioners and work essentially as "nurses" - with all nursing privileges - in any primary care setting. (NOTE: PRIMARY CARE SETTING ONLY!!!!)
EMT-Prac 100: Basics of Chemistry (2 credits)
EMT-Prac 102: Administering Meds as Ordered (2 credits)
EMT-Prac 103: Knowing if a Med Order Looks Wrong (1 credit)
EMT-Prac 105: Fundamentals of Nursing Assessment for Primary Care
(3 credits)
EMT-Prac 110: ACLS/PALS Certification (2 credits)
EMT-Prac 200: EMT-Practitioner Clinical (5 credits - 225 hours of experience in a primary care clinical setting)
Please show your support! This may be the answer we're looking for in terms of solving the primary care nursing shortage. I've worked with many, many good EMTs and I know they could probably do just as well as primary care nurses in 99.999% of cases with just a little bit of additional training. Plus they'll probably cost a couple bucks an hour less than an RN, saving money for practices and for patients! Everyone wins!!!!

what kind of ******* idiot would post something such as this on a nursing forum and actualy expect a supported response...

cjcsoon2bnp, MSN, RN, NP · May 27, 2008

Let me say first that I applaud your effort at trying to come up with a solution to this problem and while its an interesting idea I will have to agree with the other responders that I just don't believe it will work. Having another educational path to becoming a nurse or a nurse like figure will not, in my mind, help the problem of a nursing shortage. I think its about reminding people why nursing is such a rewarding career; we need to offer decent hours, fair pay and benefits and offer more incentives for experienced nurses to go for further education both for practical application purposes and to have more faculty for nursing schools so the next generation of nurses doesn't have to wait years before they get into the programs. Quite honestly for the level of education required to be a nursing professor the pay isn't worth it and unfortunately that makes it so that some nurses who would make great educators simply can't afford to go from working in a hospital or doctors office to teaching just because of the salary they would lose. This lack of available teachers and resources in nursing schools has forced schools to have huge waiting lists and to force an increase in the minimum requirement GPA for acceptance as a way to defer students or to further weed out the less academically successful students. Yet I digress, the point is that another education path requires more resources and trained faculty and I doubt would offer any sort of long term solution.

Pinkster · May 27, 2008

- In most areas, the only shortage is a shortage of working nurses. If even a small portion of the licensed but non-working nurses would return to the field, there would be little if any shortage to speak of. The most direct and effective way to address any nursing shortage would be through improvement in working conditions, such as more reasonable licensed nurse staffing ratios.

^^^Exactly!!

Try petitioning for the nurses benefit.

You might get more support.