Doctoral degree to become an NP???

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The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

Specializes in ICU, ER, HH, NICU, now FNP.
Too many NP/NP students have unfounded disdain for the Ivory Tower.

Ain't much unfounded about it in some cases. I'm sure that some programs are free of this sort of thing, but I assure you some are not. By a long shot.

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Ain't much unfounded about it in some cases. I'm sure that some programs are free of this sort of thing, but I assure you some are not. By a long shot.

Please clarify what you are saying? Thanks

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Specializes in ICU, ER, HH, NICU, now FNP.

The disdain for the ivory tower is far from unfounded.

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Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

I do not have disdain for the ivory tower. However, I can't go live in the ivory tower because then I couldn't afford to feed the family or place a roof over our heads.

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What is really at the root of those of you not wanting the DNP? Is it the money? the time? What is it?

Both, I would think. Money and time. I took 5 yrs to do a MSN program. Had to cut down hours as an RN to do it and lots of juggling. I went that route because I have Lupus. I know I cannot keep this level of physical activity up for the rest of my life. I found myself getting good at figuring out what the doctors would diagnose and how they would treat so I thought, "why not go to be a APNP?".

Now, if I were a HS grad and wondering what to do, why would I go into nursing? What are the possibilites for advancement? 4 yrs for BSN school. 5 yrs for MSN and if you required another 3-4 yrs to DNP. that is about 12 yrs. Even then, I would have to have a collaborating physician whereas an MD can practice alone. I could go to MD school, make more money, more independent, etc, etc and still do the same thing. Also, if I spent a few more years, I could specialize and make even more money. So, on a financial level, where is the sense?

IF you told me that I would have to spend 12 yrs at least to be a NP, why would I even bother? IF I wanted to diagnose and treat patients, why not make more money while I am at it and go to MD school. Yes, I would have more debts but I would be able to pay them of faster. So time wise, why spend more time for the same result?

Personally, I think the program, if implemented will KILL the NP Program altogether.

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Hello all!

I'm back with even more opinion than ever before. I am in a master's distance education program to become an FNP. I have barely started and I am going part time, which will take me 3 years. I already have professors urging me to go to Case Western Reserve University to get my DNP as soon as I finish. Why do I dislike this concept? Let's use our critical thinking skills shall we?

The DNP degree is being devised to be the entry level degree into advanced practice nursing. The current programs for non-MSN degree holders is a 4 year program, NOT a 3 year program. The programs for the post-MSN DNP degree are 1 year in some cases and 2 years in most cases. So why balk? Who cares if there is only a one to two year difference? Well friends, consider the facts. It takes at least 4 - 5 years to get a BSN. You must then work at least a year as an RN for acceptance into most programs. Now you are looking at 4 more years to get the entry level DNP degree. That's nine to ten years people. Is it just me, or does this sound a whole lot like the medical school way of doing things, minus the specialized major NP's are required to have prior to enrolling?

What does this investment get you? More respect by the medical community? No. Increase in scope of practice? No. Increase in pay? Yes, approximately $6500 more per year annually, according to the following website:

http://nurse-practitioners.advanceweb.com/common/editorial/editorial.aspx?CC=65135

That's approximately $3.125 per hour more than a master's prepared NP, considering that the average NP works 40 hours per week x 52 weeks per year. Wow! $3.125 an hour is real incentive to go back to school for a doctoral degree.

Now let's look at pay on a national level compared to other "doctoral" groups, shall we? According to the Advance for Nurse Practitioner's 2005 Salary Survey, the average NP earns $74,812 year. The median salary for a Pharm.D (Pharmacist) is $98,721 nationally (http://salary.monster.com). The median salary for an optometrist (O.D.) is $98,318 nationally(http://salary.monster.com). How about a dentist (DDS)? $120,695 nationally(http://salary.monster.com). The median salary for an Attorney I (that's a novice attorney with a J.D.) is $82,345 nationally. An attorney III (an expert attorney with a J.D.) makes a median salary of $142,976 nationally (http://salary.monster.com). Heck, an average P.A.-C earns $77,721 as a median salary annually (http://salary.monster.com)...once again more than an average NP!

Why else could be wrong with this picture? Well, now we'll have 2 classes of NP's...those with doctoral degrees versus the MSN degree holders. Sound familiar? ADN v.s. BSN? Great! Another dividing line! How about decreasing NP school enrollment? Uh, let's see... 8 years of post secondary schooling for an MD or DO, add formal post degree residency (3 years), upon completion of 11 years: $130,000 + a year. 8-9 years of schooling for a DNP, plus one year of RN experience, no formal post degree residency, upon completion of 9 to 10 years: $60 - 70,000 a year. Anyone else see a problem?

NP's will not serve as medical directors of hospitals (maybe clinics if they are lucky). NP's will not be able to do everything a physician does anytime soon. What is the point of the DNP degree again?

Just a thought.

Mark

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A better solution may be to complete the doctorate and teach. Too many NP/NP students have unfounded disdain for the Ivory Tower. You hear "those who can, work, those who can't, teach" , if teaching is such a "easy" role why is there such a faculty shortage?

I have respect for those willing to teach, especially NP faculty. Their salaries are often lower than than the students who have just gradauted from the program.

There is a general nursing shortage maybe?

But their risks are lower as a teacher and there is job security once you are tenured.

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That's approximately $3.125 per hour more than a master's prepared NP, considering that the average NP works 40 hours per week x 52 weeks per year. Wow! $3.125 an hour is real incentive to go back to school for a doctoral degree.

$3.125 is only one part of the picture. When you go to school, you cannot run a full workload. That means money lost. That money loss is larger when you consider the interest you would have made if you had that money. IF you took out a loan, add that to the money. Also, if you had been working, you might have more opportunity for advancement. So, add that all together and what do you have for that $3.125 an hour more?

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hello all!

the dnp degree is being devised to be the entry level degree into advanced practice nursing. the current programs for non-msn degree holders is a 4 year program, not a 3 year program.

what does this investment get you? more respect by the medical community? no. increase in scope of practice? no. increase in pay? yes, approximately $6500 more per year annually, according to the following website:

http://nurse-practitioners.advanceweb.com/common/editorial/editorial.aspx?cc=65135

what is the point of the dnp degree again?

just a thought.

mark

if your in the fnp role for the money you will be disappointed. the majority of generic dnp and completion dnp students are not seeking the dnp because of the increased pay. in fact the dnp is so new i suspect the data you are using is related to phd fnps not dnp prepared fnps.

you are correct in that the generic is proposed at 4 years with summers off and three years with summers included. i know of programs that are 2 and ½ years with summers for generic dnp and completion dnp that are two years part-time.

go back 15 years in history and recall what was said when the master's became the standard for fnp education, do you hear that argument now? in reality, the fnp is significantly stronger politically as well as in numbers of practicing nps as compared to the early 1990's.

when the dnp was first being discussed the pa leaders said they would never go the doctorate route. nps were foolish to purse the doctorate as an educational standard. now the pa educators are seriously considering the doctorate. http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/common/editorial/editorial.aspx?cc=58547

my last point is look at the debt incurred during education. are you suggesting the debt load is the same between all the doctorate educational pursuits you noted? i would suggest that the majority of fnp students work at least 1-2 days a pay period on average for a decent salary. what do you think the part-time work load of a student in optometry school would be ? what about their debt?

my point is that the dnp is still in development, yet is here to stay. the majority of np programs have already made the curricular changes or are in the process of changing. we can decide to be part of the solution or wait for others to determine our outcome. i for one am very supportive of the dnp and fully believe the positives will be far greater than the negatives

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if your in the fnp role for the money you will be disappointed. the majority of generic dnp and completion dnp students are not seeking the dnp because of the increased pay. in fact the dnp is so new i suspect the data you are using is related to phd fnps not dnp prepared fnps.

money is more quantifiable. in any case, i don't think that anyone has proven that an md gives better treatment than an np, have they? as an np, i am still tied to an md. as an md, i can set up shop where i like without an rn, np or whatever. so, if i have to put in the same number of years of education, what is in in for me to be an np vs an md? this is comparing an internal med md vs a fnp or anp.

lets say i am a sophmore in kollege. sell me the idea of being an np if i have to get a doctorate vs getting an md. same result, more freedom and more money.

lets say i am an rn, bsn. or rn, adn. sell me the ide of being an np vs an md. isn't it harder to go to md school vs np school? i did my np bit by bit. would md school be just as accomodating scheduling wise?

now, if the difference between an msn and a dnp is there, that might be something to go on. if i get this dnp and can do more, make more money, etc, etc, it might be worth the effort. however, as someone previously mentioned, there is no real difference between an np and an md as to the outcome. so, what is the point of more schooling? how much better will it prepare me? iow, what is in it for me for all the sacrifice? if we cannot answer that question, how will you sell the program to the 2 above mentioned cases? all either will have to ask you is "why should i spend all that time and money in school to be an np when i can have way more for a bit more sacrifice being an md?"

i suspect that if asked that question and the answer is not satisfactory, all it will do is kill the np programs. iow, if i can be an md and have more, why would i want to be an np? if people go to being an md, there would be fewer and fewer nps.

btw, what is the positive of being a dnp anyways? how will it benifit me and my patient? is there anything to prove that an msn is insufficient? i mean, we can always have more and more knowledge but whether it is economical is another story.

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btw, what is the positive of being a dnp anyways? how will it benifit me and my patient? is there anything to prove that an msn is insufficient? i mean, we can always have more and more knowledge but whether it is economical is another story.

my point was that the dnp is not an economical endeavor. i can tell you the majority (over 80%) of the fnps i have talked with in the past two years see the dnp as a positive. no, i haven't heard the msn is insufficient. rather the msn isn't being rewarded with a degree that is equal to all of their education

.

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Specializes in ICU, ER, HH, NICU, now FNP.

Exactly - most masters degrees are 28-32 hours.

Most NP programs are 48 to 54 hours.

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