Do you like Minnesota?

jayrelic · Apr 8, 2006

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. Immigrants are NOT exempted from taxes. Public policy in Minnesota is very oriented towards getting people into the workforce and keeping them there!

You were quick to edit your thread. Here's what you originally wrote, in part:

"Are you really in the right profession? I hear a real sense of selfishness and lack of empathy towards others. I bet you listen to KSTP fascist radio from the tone of your post and you are echoing their talking points. "

Fascist radio? A comment like that tells me, make that *everyone*, a great deal about you. Selfish and lack of empathy? Come, please come, and live in my shoes for an hour, a day, a week.

Minnesota taxes are a way we lend a helping hand to anyone who asks for it. I'm curious - don't you see anything amiss with the phrase 'Illegal immigrants'? If you don't, please look up the word 'illegal'.

RN34TX · Apr 8, 2006

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. Immigrants are NOT exempted from taxes. Public policy in Minnesota is very oriented towards getting people into the workforce and keeping them there!

Whatever their public policy might be intended on achieving, it's too bad that it doesn't actually work there.

Like I stated in an earlier post, MN models their local government off of Scandinavian ideals. Give, give, give...with tons of government programs to help people get on their feet when they get in a bad situation.

Those policies and ideals work great in Norway and Sweden, where people are brought up with a work ethic and use government help as a means to get back on their feet when needed and not as a method to stay unemployed and keep a check coming every month and simply expect discounted or free housing.

However, that's not the reality in inner city MPLS/St. Paul.

RN34TX · Apr 9, 2006

Have you seen the news lately? Two murders in a week downtown during prime time hours, with lights and crowds. In one, the murderer confronted a family and demanded money. They gave the murderer their money - and what do they get? Shot in the head.
And this past weekend - some punk sits in nacho cheese at a movie theatre, gets angry, and starts shooting into a crowd outside - hits a guy in the head.
If that doesn't raise any alarms, I don't know what will. Murderapolis is back.

All I know is that downtown MPLS is quite different than the one I hung out in as a young 20-something over 10-15 years ago.

I visited last time in 2003 and couldn't believe how much it had changed. Downtown is way overrun with hoodlums and they are out of control.

Where are the cops in this town?

Oh yes, that's right, trying to catch drunk drivers on I-35.

I went one of the nightclubs I used to hang out at when I lived there. It's probably the largest club on Hennepin Ave. with a parking lot right next door.

My friends no longer use this parking lot because these young hoods actually physically block the exit when people are trying to leave at night.

They bang on the car doors, break the mirrors off, and there have been instances of smashing windows and pulling people out just to beat them up and rob them.

I walked past this lot and actually watched these kids blocking the exits and harassing people trying to get out.

It's a shame what downtown MPLS has turned into because I had so much fun as a young person living there.

But I dared not say too much while I was there visiting, because MN's politically correct culture will immediately label you as a racist or intolerent if you dare to speak up about what their downtown has turned into.

Every city has it's problems but MPLS didn't used to be that bad. They need to spend money on putting way more cops on foot patroling the downtown streets and to quit bickering over casinos, light rail, and stadiums.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 9, 2006

Jayraelic,

I certainly can apologize for the tone of my original note. I was shooting from the hip which I realized that I had done immediately after posting. I perceived the comments as an attack on the poor which frankly ticked me off.

I know that immigration is a hot topic right now but I am not sure that we as a society are asking the right questions. Enforcement actions for immigration violations against employers who fail to verify immigration staus are probably the best way to control the influx of illegal immigrants. Part of the influx is driven by a business demand for low wage workers and this won't change until we make it too expensive for businesses to take the risk of hiring an illegal.

Our country was founded by immigrants and each new group has been targeted for discrimination. The point I was trying to make is that we are stronger as a country and a society when we try to help people integrate into society.

I really must disagree with the comments about taxation. State taxes have become more regressive not less since Pawlenty and Sviggum have had the purse strings. The upper 5% of taxpayers pay a lower percentage in taxes than the rest of the state's taxpayers.

Does every intervention work for everyone in moving people towards self sufficiency? Of course not. The comments that were made almost sound like throwing the baby out with the bathwater because there are some bad actors. It is not necessarily low motivation that can cause of enmeshment within the system. It can be a lack of marketable job skills, mental health issues, chronic illness within the family etc. Other barriers include lack of child care, lack of affordable health insurance, transportation etc.

Art Rolnick of the MPLS Federal Reserve (certainly not a free spender!) did a study of Family Supports for families of preschool children. He found that the annual rate of return to society for investing in children works out to 12% annually for society and 4% for the individual for a total ROI of 16%. He made the point that he could take those figures for a business to an investment banker and get financing any time. These investments do work in reducing the need for future correctional, mental health and welfare spending by government.

The reality is that caseloads have dropped but true welfare reform is expensive. Read Dave Hage's book about how welfare reform was implemented in MN and I think you will have a deeper appreciation of the challenges faced by affected families and society. The reality is that poverty is often a generational problem and we will need to work over the long haul to break down the root causes of poverty.

Pbelle · Apr 19, 2006

I'm going to jump in here, since the water seems to be boiling...

I'm a transplant here from N. Idaho, and have lived here nearly 10 years. This is the most tax-happy state I've ever lived in, and I've lived in 4 states besides MN. It's just ridiculous. I actually had a Democratic candidate tell me that "we don't have the highest taxes in the country, but we should". I nearly hit the floor. I'm tired of paying out the wazoo for programs that don't benefit my family, or to benefit some sports team. You want the highest taxes in the country? Move to the Socialist state of Vermont....

As for the comment about how the 'top 5% don't pay enough taxes', please site your source for that figure. It's simple economics - if you continue to tax the higher wage earners, they will be less likely to re-invest in their companies, thus creating fewer jobs. And what's wrong with having goals, working hard and being successful? Isn't that what this country is about?

I happen to enjoy listening to KSTP-AM, and Rush and Hugh Hewitt. I also like country, heavy metal and classical music. I watch NASCAR, the NFL (but not the Vikes), and the Twins. And I believe that people should respect other's views, without telling them that they're 'fascist' if I don't agree with them. I've noticed that charming behavior more in Minneapolis than in the 'burbs - must be something in the water.

Yeah, it can get cold here in the winter, but that's the beauty of MN - you appreciate the other seasons and there's plenty to do (ice skating, skiing, etc.) in the winter. When we first moved here, I was surprised how insular some people here are - the joke was that people here at age 40 are still hanging out with their friends from kindergarten, and live no more than 10 minutes or 4 blocks from their mom and dad/siblings/etc. (My closest relative is in Ohio!). But our neighborhood is wonderful, and I wouldn't trade it for another. Once the kids are done with high school, we'll move to Wisconsin or back out west, but Minnesota has been very good to us these past 10 years!

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 20, 2006

I really must disagree with the comments about taxation. State taxes have become more regressive not less since Pawlenty and Sviggum have had the purse strings. The upper 5% of taxpayers pay a lower percentage in taxes than the rest of the state's taxpayers.

is not the same as "don't pay enough taxes".

For an analysis of regressive versus progressive taxation see:

http://www.mnaflcio.org/MCTJ06_21_05.pdf and

http://www.mncn.org/bp/incid03.pdf.

The second source shows (as of the date of the report) that Minnesotans with incomes above 102,000 pay 10.2% in taxes versus 12.0% (and up) for those with incomes below 102,000. Strong public infrastructure is essential to business success. (infrastructure includes clean water, public libraries, public education, roads, law enforcement, affordable health care, parks, outdoor recreation etc). Arguably very little of the taxes that you pay fail to directly benefit you and your family. No one is opposed to success. The real issue is the social contract and what kind of society do we want to have?

See Art Rolnick at: http://www.gse.harvard.edu/hfrp/eval/issue26/qanda.html for a discussion of the benefits of early childhood investments. His full report is available through the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank. I referenced this work in my original post. Investments in children yield a lifetime 16% rate of return.

I noticed your reference to your children. Fully 40% of the state budget is dedicated to education so you have received direct benefits from your taxes. (I am in agreement about stadium subsidies. :>>.)

I both apologized for and (immediately) retracted my original comment in response to Jayrelic. I respect the right and importance of diversity of opinion. I will respond to those who are attacking the least powerful and most vulnerable in society. I provided a reasoned and nuanced response for the reasons for my initial reaction in my post.

For an evaluation of Rush Limbaugh and his fellow travelers see http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/rushlimbaugh.

Pbelle · Apr 20, 2006

I am fully aware of who Media Matters are, and their agenda. Why not post a link to Daily Kos or IndyMedia? I would hardly call Limbaugh a "fellow traveler", since that term is used to describe Communist sympathsizers, which would hardly describe him. He's an entertainer, and a lot of people on the left forget that. But you have to admit, he does a great imitation of Clinton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellow_travelers

Come on, cite a source other than the AFL-CIO - they're got a left-leaning bias. How about something like the GAO? At least they're basically non-partisan.

Again, what is wrong with working hard, having goals and being successful? I'm tired, as are a lot of people in this state, of having our taxes hiked up, for programs that don't benefit us. I'm not willing to pay more so that the Twins or the Vikings can go play outside again. If they want to, let the owners pony up the cost, or let whoever wants to support that effort open up their checkbook, not mine.

Oh, and for what it's worth, my family paid over 38% in taxes last year. And since the state spends over $12k/year per child in education , why do school disctricts always ask for more money? I could send my kids to private school and pay less!

I'm going to guess that you're much younger than I am. I used to think pretty much along the same lines as you do, but then I got married and started a familiy, and my priorities changed. Good luck with your efforts and your studies - if we didn't disagree, this world (and state) would be a boring place!

jayrelic · Apr 20, 2006

I am fully aware of who Media Matters are, and their agenda. Why not post a link to Daily Kos or IndyMedia? I would hardly call Limbaugh a "fellow traveler", since that term is used to describe Communist sympathsizers, which would hardly describe him. He's an entertainer, and a lot of people on the left forget that. But you have to admit, he does a great imitation of Clinton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellow_travelers
Come on, cite a source other than the AFL-CIO - they're got a left-leaning bias. How about something like the GAO? At least they're basically non-partisan.
Again, what is wrong with working hard, having goals and being successful? I'm tired, as are a lot of people in this state, of having our taxes hiked up, for programs that don't benefit us. I'm not willing to pay more so that the Twins or the Vikings can go play outside again. If they want to, let the owners pony up the cost, or let whoever wants to support that effort open up their checkbook, not mine.
Oh, and for what it's worth, my family paid over 38% in taxes last year. And since the state spends over $12k/year per child in education , why do school disctricts always ask for more money? I could send my kids to private school and pay less!
I'm going to guess that you're much younger than I am. I used to think pretty much along the same lines as you do, but then I got married and started a familiy, and my priorities changed. Good luck with your efforts and your studies - if we didn't disagree, this world (and state) would be a boring place!

Amen.

jayrelic · Apr 20, 2006

Jayraelic,
I certainly can apologize for the tone of my original note. I was shooting from the hip which I realized that I had done immediately after posting. I perceived the comments as an attack on the poor which frankly ticked me off.
I know that immigration is a hot topic right now but I am not sure that we as a society are asking the right questions. Enforcement actions for immigration violations against employers who fail to verify immigration staus are probably the best way to control the influx of illegal immigrants. Part of the influx is driven by a business demand for low wage workers and this won't change until we make it too expensive for businesses to take the risk of hiring an illegal.
Our country was founded by immigrants and each new group has been targeted for discrimination. The point I was trying to make is that we are stronger as a country and a society when we try to help people integrate into society.
I really must disagree with the comments about taxation. State taxes have become more regressive not less since Pawlenty and Sviggum have had the purse strings. The upper 5% of taxpayers pay a lower percentage in taxes than the rest of the state's taxpayers.
Does every intervention work for everyone in moving people towards self sufficiency? Of course not. The comments that were made almost sound like throwing the baby out with the bathwater because there are some bad actors. It is not necessarily low motivation that can cause of enmeshment within the system. It can be a lack of marketable job skills, mental health issues, chronic illness within the family etc. Other barriers include lack of child care, lack of affordable health insurance, transportation etc.
Art Rolnick of the MPLS Federal Reserve (certainly not a free spender!) did a study of Family Supports for families of preschool children. He found that the annual rate of return to society for investing in children works out to 12% annually for society and 4% for the individual for a total ROI of 16%. He made the point that he could take those figures for a business to an investment banker and get financing any time. These investments do work in reducing the need for future correctional, mental health and welfare spending by government.
The reality is that caseloads have dropped but true welfare reform is expensive. Read Dave Hage's book about how welfare reform was implemented in MN and I think you will have a deeper appreciation of the challenges faced by affected families and society. The reality is that poverty is often a generational problem and we will need to work over the long haul to break down the root causes of poverty.

It's nice to see that you have settled down from your initial attack. However, I cannot agree with much of what you have said in this post.

Rather than go on and on and on about each comment I disagree with, I'd just like to pose a few questions:

At what point do we say we have provided enough support to someone who is asking for it? What is wrong with asking someone to work for something instead of just handing it to them with no strings attached?

Instead of handing them a check or a place to live, why not a contract instead? A contract that says, for example, you have 90 days to get on your feet - we will provide you with xyz, but in return you must spend 20 hrs a week offering community service in places that need the help and the other 20 hrs a week looking for a self-sustaining job.

Do we give everyone not from this country the ability to simply show up on our shores, regardless of criminal history, and hand them a place to live, a stipend to pay for food and clothes, and a 7yr tax break?

Do we continue to provide food, clothing and shelter to everyone that arrives from another state regardless of their background. Are you implying that we should be fine with letting someone come from, say Illinois, or Iowa, or California, or any other state, with a violent or sexual criminal background, and hand them all of the same benefits we offer every other person seeking assistance?

Where do we draw the line? I'm sick and tired of paying the way for thugs, thieves, and sexual predators. Aren't you?

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 20, 2006

Please see: http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp for a discussion about "7 year immigrant" tax holidays.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 20, 2006

At what point do we say we have provided enough support to someone who is asking for it? What is wrong with asking someone to work for something instead of just handing it to them with no strings attached?

There is nothing wrong with putting people to work. My initial point is that Welfare reform to be done properly requires a significant social investment. (Affordable child care, transportation, health care etc.) Dave Hage wrote a book last fall that evaluated Welfare Reform since 1996.

HM2VikingRN, RN · Apr 20, 2006

Instead of handing them a check or a place to live, why not a contract instead? A contract that says, for example, you have 90 days to get on your feet - we will provide you with xyz, but in return you must spend 20 hrs a week offering community service in places that need the help and the other 20 hrs a week looking for a self-sustaining job.

Actually current law does require significant job seeking activity for those seeking public assistance (in excess of what you propose).

See:

In 1995, when Congress and President Bill Clinton were debating how to end welfare as we knew it, then-Gov. George W. Bush made it clear that he thought states should be free to set welfare policy without federal interference. Just last year, Tommy Thompson, Secretary of Health and Human Services, asserted, "One of the lessons I learned during my years as governor of Wisconsin was that for people to move from dependency to success in the work force, you had to be willing to invest in programs that support working families." at http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/waller/20020324.htm for a discussion about the role of social support structures in transitioning welfare recipients to the work force.

For a discussion of how TANF has worked in MN see: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/pubs/slmag/2004/04SLJulAug_Welfare.pdf

In general TANF has worked fairly well in achieving the goals of bringing families out of poverty. 2/3 families showed significant income gains and social benefits of increased family stability. The reality in MN is that to receive assistance the applicant does enter into a contract to behave in a certain way to receive assistance. Welfare reform to work must focus on teaching people to fish. It makes far more sense to put clients into a combination of work and work training activities to bring about the desired changes. Working at 6.75 an hour at Walmart does very little to improve the lives of families and children while training people to assume and hold a technical job such as LPN, machinist etc will help families move to the middle class in a generation. In other words work requirements from a social policy perspective shouldd include a job training option.

Also Please see: http://www.tcf.org/Publications/EconomicsInequality/immigrationgatw.pdf for an anlysis of the net benefit that immigrants provide to the tax system. The report concludes that the average immigrant family actually contributes 80,000 more in tax benefits than it receives back from frderal, state and local taxes.