DNP and further education

Editorial Team / Admin · Mar 7, 2009

I think the post-grad certificates will evolve as anything does, but I don't look for a post-grad certificate being any more stringent for the DNP educated NP than it is for the MSN educated NP.

JDCitizen · Mar 7, 2009

I see a slow down of extra training for a few years after 2015.

core0 · Mar 8, 2009

I know the certificates are not degrees but they do let you sit for boards....
I just wonder how long it will be before the DNP programs adjust to folks like me that want more.
If a DNP program is more intense than a MSN program I would guess they would make the post DNP certificate programs more intense....

I see where you are coming from. The problem is that the DNP has diverged from its intended purpose. It was supposed to be a clinical doctorate for APNs that reflected increased knowledge of pathophys and clinical medicine as well as additional clinical exposure to the APNs specialty. The divergence is that many nursing schools are simply treating this as an additional graduate degree similar to the MSN. Just as the MSN is not specific to APNs the DNP appears to be going the same way. So the question is are post DNP certificates going to have any more rigor? Right now the minimum clinical and didactic time is governed by the groups awarding the certificates. Since there is no real incentive for them to increase the amount of clinical or didactic time required, I would guess at least for the near future they will stay toward the minimums.

David Carpenter, PA-C

JDCitizen · Mar 8, 2009

I see where you are coming from. The problem is that the DNP has diverged from its intended purpose. It was supposed to be a clinical doctorate for APNs that reflected increased knowledge of pathophys and clinical medicine as well as additional clinical exposure to the APNs specialty. The divergence is that many nursing schools are simply treating this as an additional graduate degree similar to the MSN. Just as the MSN is not specific to APNs the DNP appears to be going the same way. So the question is are post DNP certificates going to have any more rigor? Right now the minimum clinical and didactic time is governed by the groups awarding the certificates. Since there is no real incentive for them to increase the amount of clinical or didactic time required, I would guess at least for the near future they will stay toward the minimums.
David Carpenter, PA-C

Pity!

With costs of medical care going through the roof and the possibility of completely/partially socialized barreling down the tracks I believe the knowledge PAs/NPs will need to possess will only increase especially with the baby boomers hitting retirement time (which brings all the medical problems of advanced age)…

Question: Would there be a decrease in the amount of students in NP programs if the rigors of said programs were increased? Increasing the clinical hours to measure thousands of hours instead of hundreds, doing what some schools are already doing mixing students from different medical pathways in A&P, etc...

I would think the PA program physasst has mentioned could be adapted to every line of NPs that exists…

Didactic is an important part of leaning but so is clinical knowledge and that knowledge has to be / can only be by gained hands on………

I am in favor of protecting my profession as well as the patients and families we treat: Training, training, training.... and team work.

physasst · Mar 8, 2009

Pity!
With costs of medical care going through the roof and the possibility of completely/partially socialized barreling down the tracks I believe the knowledge PAs/NPs will need to possess will only increase especially with the baby boomers hitting retirement time (which brings all the medical problems of advanced age)...
Question: Would there be a decrease in the amount of students in NP programs if the rigors of said programs were increased? Increasing the clinical hours to measure thousands of hours instead of hundreds, doing what some schools are already doing mixing students from different medical pathways in A&P, etc...
I would think the PA program physasst has mentioned could be adapted to every line of NPs that exists...
Didactic is an important part of leaning but so is clinical knowledge and that knowledge has to be / can only be by gained hands on.........
I am in favor of protecting my profession as well as the patients and families we treat: Training, training, training.... and team work.

It certainly could be, but currently, with the economic crisis hitting many academic institutions, and no, ours is not spared either, the impetus and design of such programs may not reach fruition currently. Which is truly too bad. For all of us. NP's and PA's.

cruisin_woodward · Mar 8, 2009

Pity!
With costs of medical care going through the roof and the possibility of completely/partially socialized barreling down the tracks I believe the knowledge PAs/NPs will need to possess will only increase especially with the baby boomers hitting retirement time (which brings all the medical problems of advanced age)...
Question: Would there be a decrease in the amount of students in NP programs if the rigors of said programs were increased? Increasing the clinical hours to measure thousands of hours instead of hundreds, doing what some schools are already doing mixing students from different medical pathways in A&P, etc...
I would think the PA program physasst has mentioned could be adapted to every line of NPs that exists...
Didactic is an important part of leaning but so is clinical knowledge and that knowledge has to be / can only be by gained hands on.........
I am in favor of protecting my profession as well as the patients and families we treat: Training, training, training.... and team work.

I must say, that I agree...I think the program should be more clinical time and core courses..Unfortunately, no one asked us when they designed. it. Maybe after a few classes graduate it will change...I am sure that they will get a lot of feed back. I do think that research, management, theory, etc is important to incorporate in the degree, but to a lesser extent. For example: 19-21 credits of research/stats...I think that is appropriate...it is a doctorate degree, 2 theory classes...appropriate, it is a nursing degree...but Geez Louize, 18 credits in "domains of knowlege"? Ugh! I think these could have been made into more core classes...I mean honestly, if you are doing a critical care specialty, you could have a 3 credit class on EKG interpretation (12 lead etc), or something...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE it if it was set up where you take a general pharm class, then take more specific pharm...for example, going along with Cardiology for the APN, could be a class dedicated to very specific Cardiovascular drugs for the APN. It could get really detailed....just my opinion...I felt the same way about my BSN though, but no one listened then either. It is just the "nursing way" they love all that stuff lol!

JDCitizen · Mar 9, 2009

I must say, that I agree...I think the program should be more clinical time and core courses..Unfortunately, no one asked us when they designed. it. Maybe after a few classes graduate it will change...I am sure that they will get a lot of feed back. I do think that research, management, theory, etc is important to incorporate in the degree, but to a lesser extent. For example: 19-21 credits of research/stats...I think that is appropriate...it is a doctorate degree, 2 theory classes...appropriate, it is a nursing degree...but Geez Louize, 18 credits in "domains of knowlege"? Ugh! I think these could have been made into more core classes...I mean honestly, if you are doing a critical care specialty, you could have a 3 credit class on EKG interpretation (12 lead etc), or something...I would LOVE LOVE LOVE it if it was set up where you take a general pharm class, then take more specific pharm...for example, going along with Cardiology for the APN, could be a class dedicated to very specific Cardiovascular drugs for the APN. It could get really detailed....just my opinion...I felt the same way about my BSN though, but no one listened then either. It is just the "nursing way" they love all that stuff lol!

Good thought:

Did anyone get a questionnaire or anything similar asking their thoughts: From your credentialing entity, school, state licensing authority??

zenman · Mar 10, 2009

I must say, that I agree...I think the program should be more clinical time and core courses..Unfortunately, no one asked us when they designed. it.

Well, let's design one. For a primary care focus, I'd add courses such as medical anthropology and health psychology. In addition to the general pharm class add a psychopharmacology course and one on primary care meds. Also psychopathology course. ECG course also.

Please continue...

Dr. Tammy, FNP/GNP-C · Mar 10, 2009

I'd add a clinical microbiology course and radiology review course.

zenman · Mar 10, 2009

Throw in a Risk Reduction course. I had an interesting one once.

zenman · Mar 10, 2009

Ok, if I was a DNP student here are the courses I'd like to take for a primary care focus:

Risk Reduction

Clinical Microbiology

Radiology

Medical Anthropology

Psychopharmacology

Primary Meds Pharmacology

Psychopathology

Electrocardiology

Women's Health

Peds

Gerontology

Epidemiology

Biostatistics

Current Issues in Health Psychology

Ethical and Professional Issues

Public Health/Environmental Health

Occupational Health

Nutrition

Psychology of Chronic Disease

Health Behavior Change

Psychoneuroimmunology

Herbal Pharmacology

2-3,000 hours of clinical

Keep adding.

ivanh3 · Mar 10, 2009

ok, if i was a dnp student here are the courses i'd like to take for a primary care focus:
risk reduction
clinical microbiology
radiology
medical anthropology
psychopharmacology
primary meds pharmacology
etc,.

those are all great, but it sounds like in that case the dnp is just being used to address what should have been covered by the MSN programs in the first place. frankly, i am against all of the time during apn training that is given to nursing theory. i really feel it is covered enough in undergrad, msn educator/research tracts, and phd programs. i am not saying it is useless material, but given the time restriction, and the fact it is covered so well in other areas/specialties i feel the hours could be better spent.