So I have been a nursing student now since 2016 and currently in my last year. I attend a private institution.
[A little disclosure: I would of graduated May 2018 but I had a setback. I was going through some outside stressors which was beginning to interfere with my education. I wasn't managing my time effectively, therefore causing me to miss not one but two clinical days. From that, I received (2) academic warnings and had to then sit in front of the dean of the school to prove why I want to be in the program. The meeting resulted in me withdrawing to "find myself.” I was granted an oppurtunity to come back in the fall (August 2018) on the condition that I do not receive any further academic warnings this time around or else it would mean grounds for dismissal]
So this brings me here: A week ago, I was under investigation due to an incident that occurred in my clinical rotation. A complaint arose that three individuals had witnessed me vaping around the premises of the hospital where I was having one of my rotations at. The fact of the matter is I wasn't vaping, nor do I have ownership of one. The school that I attend investigated the complaint further by reviewing camera footage but the footage did not find proof of that occurring. But because they had three eyewitnesses, they have decided to dismiss me from the program. I've very passionate about Nursing. I've been doing very well academically/clinically up until this moment. I'm devastated.
My questions:
1) Would I be able to appeal this and win?
2) Would another Nursing program even accept me after this?
3) Is it advisable to make this a court case?
Appreciate any/all advice and/or feedback. Thank you all.
Appeal and consult a lawyer. Talk to your lawyer about a nicotine test asap. I'm sorry this happened to you. Why would the security guards give false statements?
- all 3 security guards allege they saw you vaping on the hospital campus but there is no conclusive video evidence of this? Where were they that allowed them to observe your actions? It makes sense if they were in the guard booth but then it doesn't make sense for it not to be on security camera. If they are saying they were all out on rounds and all witnessed this infraction tell me what facility you've ever worked in where three guards are all patrolling the same area at the same time? Assuming the OP is giving accurate info this sounds like one saw, thought he saw, or fabricated seeing something and the other two lied to back him up. I could be all wrong on this; but if there are any holes in their account a good attorney should be able to expose them if it comes to that.
What I see as possibly your biggest problems are 1. Prior history having to leave school and circumstances around that, 2. It's a private school so you have fewer rights. Maybe a defamation or contract case if you go to court.
1. Could you appeal this and win? YES. You have three eye witnesses, but a camera shows you not vaping. I would be more inclined to trust camera footage of this as even eye-witness accounts are less than trustworthy. I've had "eye-witnesses" claim I did something I didn't and cameras saved my butt. "I thought I saw" and "I definitely saw" are two very different things. These three security guards asked, "Do you vape?" and you said no. Was there an odour in the hallway that lead the security guards to think you were vaping? If so, what was that odour? If the security guards were talking to each other, then it's likely they were facing each other and at least one had his back to you. How could he be an eye witness if his back was to you? I would begin picking apart each and every thing. Also, see if you can follow your trail from the cafeteria to the security guards. Watch hand placement: do you, at any time, pick up something and bring it to your mouth? I've had people ask "Is that a vape?" When really, it's a chunky pen or penlight in my pocket. Again, "I thought I saw" and "I definitely saw" are very different.
If the cameras don't show it, it didn't happen. Stick to that. A false accusation, even with "eye witnesses" is a false accusation. Follow the appeal procedures. Be objective. Use the cameras to prove you weren't vaping. Also, use your past history in your favour: Why would you vape when you were told another incident would result in dismissal? Also, I would be asking the three eye-witnesses SEPARATELY if you were vaping tobacco or marijuana. It would be interesting to hear what their answers are before they have time to consult with each other. I honestly think you can win this.
2. It depends on the program, but investigations are part of the process. If you were dismissed, they need to investigate why you were dismissed (did you harm a patient, or was it something else?). Keep in mind that most programs also require you to complete your nursing program within a certain time frame. For me, I had to complete my nursing degree in 5 years.
3. It depends. If you win the appeal, this is not necessary. If you lose the appeal, it is up to you if you want to take it to court. Get a good lawyer, but keep in mind that you will have lots of fees to do this. Is it worth it? Can you possibly sue the security guards because of the inconvenience they caused you? Consult with a lawyer and get legal advice. Costly, yes, but you are so close to finishing your program!
Appeal and consult a lawyer. Talk to your lawyer about a nicotine test asap. I'm sorry this happened to you. Why would the security guards give false statements?
Idk. I wish I can answer that. Alll I can say at this point is consider it a discriminatory act. I hate to do that but I can’t imagine any other reason why they would deem that onto me.
- all 3 security guards allege they saw you vaping on the hospital campus but there is no conclusive video evidence of this? Where were they that allowed them to observe your actions? It makes sense if they were in the guard booth but then it doesn't make sense for it not to be on security camera. If they are saying they were all out on rounds and all witnessed this infraction tell me what facility you've ever worked in where three guards are all patrolling the same area at the same time? Assuming the OP is giving accurate info this sounds like one saw, thought he saw, or fabricated seeing something and the other two lied to back him up. I could be all wrong on this; but if there are any holes in their account a good attorney should be able to expose them if it comes to that.
What I see as possibly your biggest problems are 1. Prior history having to leave school and circumstances around that, 2. It's a private school so you have fewer rights. Maybe a defamation or contract case if you go to court.
Welll that’s what I’m concluding happened. I was walking down a hallway when this all occurred. Three men were standing in the distance. I noticed one looking in my direction and the other two were facing him. As I got closer to where they were standing is only when the guy who was looking down at my direction initially, asked about vaping. I couldnt provide him with any answer other than the truth which was no. He wasn’t even wearing security attire, and didn’t even have his badge on so I didnt know who I was dealing with. Anyhow, even after I provided him with an answer, a report suddenly was made, and coincidentally it was by 3 “eyewitnesses.”
I definetly understand I have prior history for having to leave but that’s every reason why I wouldn’t have done anything to jeopardize my chances in the program, especially anything as remotely stupid as vaping in a hospital.
But hey thanks for the feedback!!! Appreciate all of you for the input.
1. Could you appeal this and win? YES. You have three eye witnesses, but a camera shows you not vaping. I would be more inclined to trust camera footage of this as even eye-witness accounts are less than trustworthy. I've had "eye-witnesses" claim I did something I didn't and cameras saved my butt. "I thought I saw" and "I definitely saw" are two very different things. These three security guards asked, "Do you vape?" and you said no. Was there an odour in the hallway that lead the security guards to think you were vaping? If so, what was that odour? If the security guards were talking to each other, then it's likely they were facing each other and at least one had his back to you. How could he be an eye witness if his back was to you? I would begin picking apart each and every thing. Also, see if you can follow your trail from the cafeteria to the security guards. Watch hand placement: do you, at any time, pick up something and bring it to your mouth? I've had people ask "Is that a vape?" When really, it's a chunky pen or penlight in my pocket. Again, "I thought I saw" and "I definitely saw" are very different.
If the cameras don't show it, it didn't happen. Stick to that. A false accusation, even with "eye witnesses" is a false accusation. Follow the appeal procedures. Be objective. Use the cameras to prove you weren't vaping. Also, use your past history in your favour: Why would you vape when you were told another incident would result in dismissal? Also, I would be asking the three eye-witnesses SEPARATELY if you were vaping tobacco or marijuana. It would be interesting to hear what their answers are before they have time to consult with each other. I honestly think you can win this.
2. It depends on the program, but investigations are part of the process. If you were dismissed, they need to investigate why you were dismissed (did you harm a patient, or was it something else?). Keep in mind that most programs also require you to complete your nursing program within a certain time frame. For me, I had to complete my nursing degree in 5 years.
3. It depends. If you win the appeal, this is not necessary. If you lose the appeal, it is up to you if you want to take it to court. Get a good lawyer, but keep in mind that you will have lots of fees to do this. Is it worth it? Can you possibly sue the security guards because of the inconvenience they caused you? Consult with a lawyer and get legal advice. Costly, yes, but you are so close to finishing your program!
Exactly my thought process. And the crazier part about it, I wasn’t even informed of who the alleged eyewitnesses were or where they “saw me vaping” all’s that was said is, “there were 3 eyewitnesses.” It’s unbelievable. And I didn’t see any vape smoke or smelled anything out of the ordinary while i was walking through the hall so whatever he thought he saw is on him, but it cost me my education. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone.
Exactly my thought process. And the crazier part about it, I wasn’t even informed of who the alleged eyewitnesses were or where they “saw me vaping” all’s that was said is, “there were 3 eyewitnesses.” It’s unbelievable. And I didn’t see any vape smoke or smelled anything out of the ordinary while i was walking through the hall so whatever he thought he saw is on him, but it cost me my education. I feel like I’m in the twilight zone.
Your eye-witnesses will be kept anonymous simply to protect them. It's just how things work. While you may suspect it's those three officers, anonymity keeps you and them safe. You're more likely to report things when you're kept anonymous, right? It also protects workers from potential harassment, bullying, and negative comments in the workplace.
I would ask your dean to pursue this further. Demand to see the security footage, and get a copy of it. You do not want to suddenly hear a week or so from now that, "Oh, we don't have that footage anymore." Get a copy of everything written down so you are not in a situation of "he said, she said" either. You NEED to get written statements that this was alleged by "eye witnesses" only, and that there was no evidence on tape.
I can't believe this is happening to you. If the person alleging that this happened knew the cost, maybe they would have thought twice.
Your eye-witnesses will be kept anonymous simply to protect them. It's just how things work. While you may suspect it's those three officers, anonymity keeps you and them safe. You're more likely to report things when you're kept anonymous, right? It also protects workers from potential harassment, bullying, and negative comments in the workplace.
I would ask your dean to pursue this further. Demand to see the security footage, and get a copy of it. You do not want to suddenly hear a week or so from now that, "Oh, we don't have that footage anymore." Get a copy of everything written down so you are not in a situation of "he said, she said" either. You NEED to get written statements that this was alleged by "eye witnesses" only, and that there was no evidence on tape.
I can't believe this is happening to you. If the person alleging that this happened knew the cost, maybe they would have thought twice.
Yes I see what you’re saying. And absolutely! I did send a message requesting the footage and I do have the email stating that they have eyewitnesses who came forward with the complaint. However, during my meeting with the school is when it was verbally expressed that camera footage wasn’t viable because of the quality of the camera but that th decision to dismiss was solely on the 3 eyewitnesses.
Yes I see what you’re saying. And absolutely! I did send a message requesting the footage and I do have the email stating that they have eyewitnesses who came forward with the complaint. However, during my meeting with the school is when it was verbally expressed that camera footage wasn’t viable because of the quality of the camera but that th decision to dismiss was solely on the 3 eyewitnesses.
The more you tell us, the more it either:
Becomes extremely shady between your school and the clinical
or
Pushes us towards you're lying about not vaping
Remember, the burden of proof is on who accuses you. Don't listen to them about the video not being viable. That's something strong to defend yourself with. Even if it's low quality, there's ways to see if you did or didn't. Also, don't forget about whatever camera saw the people who saw you. And don't be surprised when you get an answer back that they're not going to release the video to you. A lot of times it takes getting a lawyer involved.
There should be a grievance process is your school handbook.
The decision of the nursing Dean is NOT final. They may tell you it is...but it isn't.
You need to follow that process and appeal that decision.
I also want to ask yourself to be honest. Do you vape? What reason would these three students have to target you and not another? Could you pass a nicotine drug test?
Becomes extremely shady between your school and the clinical
or
Pushes us towards you're lying about not vaping
Remember, the burden of proof is on who accuses you. Don't listen to them about the video not being viable. That's something strong to defend yourself with. Even if it's low quality, there's ways to see if you did or didn't. Also, don't forget about whatever camera saw the people who saw you. And don't be surprised when you get an answer back that they're not going to release the video to you. A lot of times it takes getting a lawyer involved.
Yeah the reason I even bring up the video is because I just find it hard to believe no matter the quality of the video that it couldn’t prove I was speaking on the truth. Like you mentioned, it should atleast pick up on the motions of putting something in your mouth. And for that I’m in such disbelief that all this even occurred. I’m in the process of though of writing an appeal. And it alll goes welll, I’m hoping to get reinstated.
There should be a grievance process is your school handbook.
The decision of the nursing Dean is NOT final. They may tell you it is...but it isn't.
You need to follow that process and appeal that decision.
I also want to ask yourself to be honest. Do you vape? What reason would these three students have to target you and not another? Could you pass a nicotine drug test?
Yes I’m going through the process of appealing now, though I feel my situation is very unique in the sense that the guidelines suited for an appeal don’t quite fit my underlying reason for dismissal.
Also, it wasn’t students who made the complaint. They were individuals who worked for the hospital. And I am absolutely certain who they were because I was approached by a man who was accompanied by two other individuals at the time and was questioned if i was vaping.
And if I were to take a nicotine test, yes I would pass. But they haven’t even given me the oppurtunity to do that. I don’t smoke, let alone vape.
Psychnursehopeful, ASN, RN
155 Posts
Appeal and consult a lawyer. Talk to your lawyer about a nicotine test asap. I'm sorry this happened to you. Why would the security guards give false statements?