Disclipline

Specialties Geriatric

Published

We are having a huge problem in my facility with insubordination and just plain rude behavior. The DNS has been there for 4 months and has been out for the last 5 weeks on medical leave so I'm the acting DNS. It seems to be a case of the inmates running the assylum or too many chiefs and not enough braves (as my father used to say in the pre-PC days). We've had meetings with the nurses, the CNA's, everyone and it hasn't gotten better. There is one CNA who continues to be insubordinate. The first time he refused to pick up any extra residents because there was a call out. The nurse, instead of dealing with him, called me. I explained to him about insubordination and told him if he acted this was again, I'd write him up. I explained to all the nurses on the units that THEY are in charge of the aides. So a few weeks go by and I get a call at home from one of the nurses telling me that the same CNA is paging overhead for people to come to his floor to help. I spoke to the charge nurse and told her to either get him to do his work or send him home. I found out on Monday that SHE did 5 patients.

Then again there were several callouts so I asked one of the nurses to send a CNA to the floor who had 3 aides...each unit has 40 residents and each is supposed to have 5 aides. She wanted to know why because that would mean HER aides had extra residents and she didn't think it was fair. I asked her if she thought it was fair that the CNAs downstairs would have many more residents each because they only had 3 aides.I told her I knew it was rotten, but I had to look at the whole building and asked her again to make sure a CNA went to the other unit......long story short, an hour and a half later no one had gone. She told me the staff wanted to speak to me. So up I went into the dining room ...the aides marched in and stared at me. I asked them why they hadn't floated someone and got the same litany of responses about unfair this and unfair that and "you don't know what it's like"...hello people I WAS an aide once and know what it's like and I know that if I don't do what my boss tells me, I'll get written up. They continued to argue so finally I said "Enough...someone goes and that's the end of it for today."

They later called the regional executive director for a meeting which he had with them when the DNS came in for a hour. I asked her what they said...they told her I yelled at them and was 'mean'....I DON'T yell at work. I always speak in a low voice when I'm trying to get someone to listen. She told me that she told them that she wouldn't discuss that particular day. But instead of telling them that they have to do what they are told, she told them to cut me some slack because I was trying to do my job, her job and the ED's job that week. She might as well have told them to pat me on the head because I had PMS or something.

It seems I am the only person in the building who cares about this. We had a dept. head meeting about it and the administrator actually asked if being in charge of CNAs was in the job description we handed out!! Yes, I said, but more importantly, it's in the nurse practice act.

I like to have fun at work, but the residents have to come first.

Wow this is long! So...do all y'all have discipline problems? Do the charge/floor nurses write people up or do the managers have to do it all?

it's a tough situation.

DONs don't like to write up, discipline or terminate cna's, since no one in their right mind would take such a low-paying yet back-breaking job. (this is the feedback i've heard).

so the nurses don't report insubordination, knowing mgmt won't do a blessed thing about it.

maybe a slap on the hand, but ever so gently.

insubordination persists, w/concurrent low morale and hostile environment.

and these nasty offenders end up running the whole damned facility!

of course it isn't like this across the board.

but yes, there are facilities such as this.

as nurses, it's so easy to aspire to 'zero-tolerance' workplace.

but if you don't have the support of your mgrs, everyone is (negatively) affected.

leslie

Specializes in A myriad of specialties.
The staff nurse can't hire and can't fire and can't discipline so why expect the staff nurse to deal with this problem, yes the staff nurse can write the person up, but the unit manager (or DNS in LTC) is the only one that really has the power to discipline or fire the problem person, and in my opinion they need to deal with it, not expect the staff nurse to do it.

I sympathize/understand what you're saying. However, in my experience the "problem person" seems to work the weekends when the DON is NOT there; hence the charge nurse on duty DOES need to deal with the person. More often than not the DON still let the person stay because of the potential short-staffing if he/she was sent home. This sends a message to the other CNAs that they DO have the power in LTC; they can mouth off, be insubordinate, refuse tasks because... hey a "mouthy body is better than NO body". I once actually overheard a long-time, "head" CNA (when they'd just received word that they were going union) say "they(nurses) can't touch us now---we've got the union---we can do whatever we want--this place can't run without us!!!!!":angryfire

Specializes in med/surg, telemetry, IV therapy, mgmt.

so, how did this problem ever get resolved? i see the op has made several posts on other threads since this one. what i would have done is get permission from the administrator to target the troublemaker, the male aid, and follow him like a hawk and write him up day after day, personally for insubordination and infractions until there was enough to terminate him. there were also several opportunities where he should have been clocked out and escorted out of the building, written up and put on probation. any further wrongdoing and out the door. usually, once someone gets fired, the rest of the group straightens up. if not, fire another one and pretty soon people get skitterish and fall into line. i'm not saying fire indiscriminately, but some deadwood has to go. sometimes you also have to take people into the office and have a serious one on one talk about shaping up or else. sometimes, like children, you have to put a little bit of intimidation into them. it's sad that charge nurses don't want to take the reins of authority and act like charge nurses, but this is the fault of the administration and nursing educators. people go into nursing expecting to be the givers of care. the fact is, there's more to nursing than just delivering bedside care and so-o-o-o many nurses just don't want to acknowledge that. i was told many years ago, "honey, you're an rn. that means you are in charge, so start acting like it." whoa! where did that come from, i wondered. i had to learn the hard way. nursing school, unfortunately, doesn't prepare you for some of the scum, and you did read that right, you run into that work in ltc.

We are having a huge problem in my facility with insubordination and just plain rude behavior. The DNS has been there for 4 months and has been out for the last 5 weeks on medical leave so I'm the acting DNS. It seems to be a case of the inmates running the assylum or too many chiefs and not enough braves (as my father used to say in the pre-PC days). We've had meetings with the nurses, the CNA's, everyone and it hasn't gotten better. There is one CNA who continues to be insubordinate. The first time he refused to pick up any extra residents because there was a call out. The nurse, instead of dealing with him, called me. I explained to him about insubordination and told him if he acted this was again, I'd write him up. I explained to all the nurses on the units that THEY are in charge of the aides. So a few weeks go by and I get a call at home from one of the nurses telling me that the same CNA is paging overhead for people to come to his floor to help. I spoke to the charge nurse and told her to either get him to do his work or send him home. I found out on Monday that SHE did 5 patients.

Then again there were several callouts so I asked one of the nurses to send a CNA to the floor who had 3 aides...each unit has 40 residents and each is supposed to have 5 aides. She wanted to know why because that would mean HER aides had extra residents and she didn't think it was fair. I asked her if she thought it was fair that the CNAs downstairs would have many more residents each because they only had 3 aides.I told her I knew it was rotten, but I had to look at the whole building and asked her again to make sure a CNA went to the other unit......long story short, an hour and a half later no one had gone. She told me the staff wanted to speak to me. So up I went into the dining room ...the aides marched in and stared at me. I asked them why they hadn't floated someone and got the same litany of responses about unfair this and unfair that and "you don't know what it's like"...hello people I WAS an aide once and know what it's like and I know that if I don't do what my boss tells me, I'll get written up. They continued to argue so finally I said "Enough...someone goes and that's the end of it for today."

They later called the regional executive director for a meeting which he had with them when the DNS came in for a hour. I asked her what they said...they told her I yelled at them and was 'mean'....I DON'T yell at work. I always speak in a low voice when I'm trying to get someone to listen. She told me that she told them that she wouldn't discuss that particular day. But instead of telling them that they have to do what they are told, she told them to cut me some slack because I was trying to do my job, her job and the ED's job that week. She might as well have told them to pat me on the head because I had PMS or something.

It seems I am the only person in the building who cares about this. We had a dept. head meeting about it and the administrator actually asked if being in charge of CNAs was in the job description we handed out!! Yes, I said, but more importantly, it's in the nurse practice act.

I like to have fun at work, but the residents have to come first.

Wow this is long! So...do all y'all have discipline problems? Do the charge/floor nurses write people up or do the managers have to do it all?

wether i am charge or not i will first talk with the person about any offenses and anot to the DON that i did so and for what i did it for - the second time is a written warnong along wth a copy to the DON and administrator - 3rd times the charm- i tell them i am writen up a ull report of aall th epast an curent problems and send it off to the administrator and DON adn if i dont hear back i will check in and say so what did you do about so and so - if they say talked to em i will protest that they need discipline as obbviously i talked 3 times and it did not work. usually then they will deal with it seriously then. the imporatnt partis document everyting cause if ya dont they cant do anything about f even if they want to. if i hear rumours but havent seen i keep a little notebook and watch for the problems adn when i see em i will then write them up along with the names of who tol me what when and how.

nurses need to unionize, nationwide.

i don't want this thread to go down hill, so fair warning!

unionization is good for some things; our facility has a union for lpn's and cna's. however, it did take us a very long time to get rid of 3 aides wh did squat! we ended up having one come back.....do not ask why. the paperwork we do is kept, so.....keep a goooood trail.

suebird3

yes documentation is the key - keep good notes of incidences and turn them in - get written statements from other staff in regards t the poor conduct - without it union or not they wont let em go cause they are a "body" to count in their numbers. i am one who am generally like by the cnas but do tick em off cause noone leaves until all floors /wings are done - noone sits and chats ( even if it is during their charting time - if they can chat they can go help) cause i will make them get up and go help. team work is essential and some just need a bigger boost then some lol. i am sure they grumble from time to time when made to go help but overall i am sure they appreciate it cause if they are the ones behind they also get the help.

i agree here - i too thin if it is their day off no reprimand should happen or be pout on any kind of "list"- day off is day off - especially those that already work full time!! heck - whatever happened to family and health first - we cant do adequate jobs when we are sick or worried about our families. like yo i to work part time FOR A REASON - they do get mad cause like just this weekend - they had 4 shifts to fill - they Knew This last week. !!!! i do not even answer anymore and then get called into the office on my next work day why didn't you blah blah - well - because i am doing you a favor - without me you would have 16 shifts to fill instead of 6 - get over it and leave me alone or i'm, outta here i wanna say - but i dont - i just listen and tell them i was busy and did not get the message toll to late.

I sympathize/understand what you're saying. However, in my experience the "problem person" seems to work the weekends when the DON is NOT there; hence the charge nurse on duty DOES need to deal with the person. More often than not the DON still let the person stay because of the potential short-staffing if he/she was sent home. This sends a message to the other CNAs that they DO have the power in LTC; they can mouth off, be insubordinate, refuse tasks because... hey a "mouthy body is better than NO body". I once actually overheard a long-time, "head" CNA (when they'd just received word that they were going union) say "they(nurses) can't touch us now---we've got the union---we can do whatever we want--this place can't run without us!!!!!":angryfire

hmmm - another good case against the union - in my opinion. and they are right - it is awfulhard to get rid of any union member even with documentation let alone without. makes for very sad and scary work circumstances for the residents especially in my opinion.

Specializes in med/surg, telemetry, IV therapy, mgmt.
hmmm - another good case against the union - in my opinion. and they are right - it is awfulhard to get rid of any union member even with documentation let alone without. makes for very sad and scary work circumstances for the residents especially in my opinion.

this is just not true. it actually is just the opposite. because the union contract is in writing it clearly spells out what the worker and the employer are obligated to do. the employee is very clearly supposed to follow the rules of the company and when they don't, the union doesn't support them. as a manager i had to attend a number of disciplinary grievances filed by employees to defend the hospital's point of view. because we had the written documentation and proof of the wrongdoing by the employee, often observed by witnesses, there was nothing the shop stewards could do. in fact, many of the shop stewards would just kind of shake their heads in disgust at some of the misbehavings of the workers filing grievances and tell some of us that they wondered what the thinking was that was going on in the heads of these people. our personnel department knew that union contract down to a "t", which was their job, and had trained us all in exactly how to document any wrongdoing. there are correct ways to do these things and shoddy ways. unfortunately, nursing school doesn't give students any lectures on how to write up disciplinary actions that have bite. if someone works in a union shop and the administration doesn't take the time to explain to their supervisors, managers and charge nurses how to properly document in order to be in compliance with the union contract, then everyone ends up living in misery. remember, these contracts are written by lawyers in order to satisfy both sides. even lawyers on both sides know that there are times when a scuzbucket employee needs to get booted out the door. unions coach their deliberate "troublemakers" to be careful, follow the union rules and not have witnesses to what they are doing if they start breaking company rules.

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