Hello everyone. I am finishing up my first semester in an FNP masters program at a brick and mortar school. This semester I took Advanced Health Assessment/lab and Advanced Pharmacology. I am doing well in the program (grades over 90% on every exam taken) but, I just feel so disappointed. The program is fairly disorganized. The content is to be expected as in it is definitely not fluff in the classes I am taking, but with health assessment, it is surely teach yourself. I am okay with and expect self-study to an extent, but I can't help to question why I am spending 1k per credit hour for this. They do not provide clinical placements and when I have asked for guidance, I am simply told to keep trying or receive no response from the clinical liason (not sure what her job actually is since she offers little to no help). I start clinical next spring and have contacted over 50 pediatric/family practices (up to 3 hours away) and have nothing. Most places simply say they do not take NP students and the ones that do said "we are booked with students for 2 years." When I discussed this with my adviser, he said it is becoming near impossible to find a pediatric site (and women's health). It irritates me to no end that they are accepting so many students (anyone with a BSN and a pulse) and are aware of the lack of clinical sites. Not only that, but there is no quality control with sites so even if you do secure a site, you could end up simply just shadowing for the entire time (yes, students have told me this is what their experience was like). It's crazy to think that this is the education in place for NPs, and I know it is not just my school. I have done a lot of research on this and have found that some schools are wonderful and truly prepare students (and supply clinical sites!), but it is mind boggling that there is such an inconsistency in the education in place.
At this point, I am not sure I want to continue. I am discouraged by the program itself and the hundreds of NPs being pumped out just in my area and across the nation. I know that if I do continue, I risk not finding clinical sites and having to sit out and waste more money. I also fear not being prepared when I come out of this due to the lack of a formal clinical experience and then trying to find a job that offers good mentoring when jobs are hard to come by at all in many areas. I am finding myself very envious of the PA students and regretting not going that route a long time ago(right now, it's not going to happen in my life).
I am blabbering on, but is anyone else in the same boat? Is anyone else questioning your continuation in your program or becoming an NP in general? Thank you for listening/reading.
Two weeks left in this semester and in my advanced pharmacology class we have made it through 8 of 20 drug sections on the syllabus. I feel like I should get my money back. Also, the clinical coordinator (again, don't know what she actually does) has not responded to my emails regarding clinicals. One of my professors has not responded to an email I sent last Thursday regarding clarification on assignment. The director of the FNP program has not returned an email I sent regarding clinical and if I can do specialty since I can't find any pediatric. This program is awful.
Two weeks left in this semester and in my advanced pharmacology class we have made it through 8 of 20 drug sections on the syllabus. I feel like I should get my money back. Also, the clinical coordinator (again, don't know what she actually does) has not responded to my emails regarding clinicals. One of my professors has not responded to an email I sent last Thursday regarding clarification on assignment. The director of the FNP program has not returned an email I sent regarding clinical and if I can do specialty since I can't find any pediatric. This program is awful.
If you haven't already, please submit a formal complaint to CCNE. It might be a good idea to complaint to the parent institution. To be honest, if I were in your position, I would become very persistent in seeking a refund.
It's so sad to hear this. Sad and embarrassing and scary for future patients that this is the schooling in place for future providers. I could somewhat handle the less than quality didactic portion (due to self supplementing on my own time), but to not have a formal clinical program in place is absolutely inexcusable. In class, they say over and over that this is all for the clinical portion, to "prepare you for clinical." What clinical??
I'm in one semester deep in terms of financial loss... I'm not sure I'm going to continue at this point and spend like 35k more?
Yes, Basically as an NP student, the most that I have done in clinicals is assess patients. NOTHING more. I have been assessing patients my whole nursing career. Currently, I am doing pediatrics, my preceptor does not even allow me to assess patient's, only follow her around.
Yes, Basically as an NP student, the most that I have done in clinicals is assess patients. NOTHING more. I have been assessing patients my whole nursing career. Currently, I am doing pediatrics, my preceptor does not even allow me to assess patient's, only follow her around.
This is soooo sad. I have been precepting for 10 years and my students do much more than observe. PM me if you are in the northeast!!
Today, an instructor at my school responded to an email not realizing I was cc'ed on it (My original email was to the dean asking if we could do specialty hours since its near impossible finding a primary ped clinical site). I told her how many offices I had contacted. The instructor wrote how it was crazy that students would call so many offices annoying them and "no wonder pediatricians are unwilling to take our students". I was livid and disgusted she would say that. First, she is admitting there is an issue in terms of site availability and second, she blames it on the students because we are calling. I responded to her letting her know I also received her email and how the only help I've received from the school for the thousands I have spent is "keep a list and keep trying". I asked if there is another method because we would all certainly love to know it. She responded within 6 minutes apologizing and that she did not mean for me to get the email (obviously). She changed her tune saying I wasn't doing anything wrong by calling as that is what I was told to do, and said the faculty is meeting to hopefully come up with a solution for the issue between pediatricians and students. Okay, right.The issue isn't between pediatrician offices and students...the issue is that these schools admit hundreds of students knowing there is such limited preceptor availability and providing little to no guidance in terms of securing one. I can not believe this is something I paid for.
Look up the Sawyer Initiative. As of January 2019, it's basically a law that NP programs have to provide you with preceptors/clinical sites. If they fail to comply, you report them continuously and eventually enough people will cause CCNE to remove their accreditation and shut them down. Advocate, advocate, advocate for our profession and futures!
Wow! This is one of the most ignorant and uninformed things I have ever read. The “Sawyer Initiative” is one NP’s personal attempt at petitioning the CCNE to change policy regarding clinical placement requirements. To placate her, someone from the organization (or so she claims) guaranteed her that policy changed. If you read the actually policy including the changes and her accounts of communication with the CCNE it becomes blatantly clear than not substantive policy change was made and that she is spreading poor information based on her lack of understanding, lack of critical reading, and probably a silver tongue of someone in PR. The CCNE, I’m sure, is happy to take multiple complaints of schools that don’t violate actual policy and file them in the trash. You would have little recourse to challenge any lack of action by the organization since they are acting in accordance with their policies.
I agree that there any many problems with NP education, lax admission standards and inconsistent clinical education probably at the top of the list. But it also appears that enough nurses are either ok with the status quo (at least unwilling to take action to make change) or are not knowledgeable of the systems and policies that have lead us to where we are and how to affect meaningful change.
If it's one of the most ignorant and uniformed things you have ever read, you must keep reading. It's definitely been made clear, and if you join NP advocacy groups or call the right sources, you'll find this rabbit hole goes deep and changes will be coming. Rather than throw up one's arms in anger, I will repeat advocate, advocate , advocate and fight for our profession. Sometimes those who are fearful to speak up at first, will become able to speak up when they see their more confident peers doing so. Personally, I don't do status quo, and I'll keep pushing for positive changes in all areas of concern. School is very expensive, the education is what the $$ is supposed to be used for, not to seek out educators ourselves. Everyone that's a nurse aspiring towards further education needs to give themselves more credit here...pro student, indeed.
I'm all for advocacy but it will only be effective if done intelligently. Such ignorant comments as calling a petition drive and website "basically a law", claiming to quote policy when only screenshotting a executive summary of said policy, and failing to engage in basic critical reading and thinking are not tools of effective advocacy. It's disappointing because our profession deserves better.
If you like a more detailed discussion of the errors and assumptions that you and your overly zealous advocates have made, feel free to read through this thread. Basically, there are not substantive changes in the new accreditation standards requiring schools to take a more active role in the securing clinical sites for students. The CCNE makes careful (indeed expert) use of language including the passive voice to make it sound like they have acquiesced to the requests of the Sawyer Initiative without actually changing policy. In fact, a compelling case could be made that the new standard actually make clinical requirement less stringent since they replaced language that would require clinical experience to be structured for students to achieve competence. A stronger argument could be made that they paved the way for shadowing to be considered adequate clinical experience and thus taken a major step towards weakening clinical nursing education.
Bottom line, if I am wrong and you're right. Why did the CCNE exclude the stronger language and commitments they have allegedly provided in personal communication and summaries of the standards for the actual standards themselves? Likely, because they are able to do so and the ignorant advocate are blithely unaware of the wool being pulled over their eyes. In fact, without making any real changes to nursing education standards, the masterful PR at CCNE has turned the "advocates" into their own cheerleaders all without having to give an inch.
Yes, advanced practice nursing education, as a whole, is in a dismal state. But being naive and uncritical is doing no favors in advancing the cause.
Likely, because they are able to do so and the ignorant advocate are blithely unaware of the wool being pulled over their eyes.
If you haven't done anything to help, at the very least don't belittle those who made an effort to improve the status quo (i.e. making personal attacks and calling others "unintelligent" and "ignorant").
Nobody is delusional enough to think that the new CCNE standards will work immediately and fully, yet it is a step forward. It's true that a lot has to do with the RN culture, with many experienced RNs wanting easy-in/easy-out NP programs. There's no easy fix. If you have great ideas, please share.
I am in an online FNP program. I have been a nurse for over 30 years, thought I'd take the leap and try it. It has been more than disappointing. All the instructors log on from other states, read slides and call it a lecture and seem very non-supportive overall. You are basically paying big bucks to self teach yourself. And their idea of helping you find a preceptor involves a list of providers which hasn't been updated in three or four years and you do all the legwork. They tell you to start looking two years in advance. I brought up with the dean the new incentives to try and make these NP programs more responsible for helping the students find preceptors and was told my school is accredited by a different nursing body so I guess they feel they don't have to uphold the CCNE standards. I traveled 3 hours one way, often in snow and ice to complete my first clinicals and the preceptor, who owns her own practice basically bullied me through the entire experience. I just found out the other day this dame flunked me and if I want to go on I can repeat the course. I feel there is no support for the student whatsoever in these programs but they sure have their hand out when the tuition is due. We need dedicated residency programs for NP school just like they do for med schools. I would say to anyone considering NP school, especially an online program to proceed with caution, do alot of homework and then decide if this is really what you want to do.
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Has anyone here had to wait out a semester, transfer.or withdraw due to not finding a clinical site? When I told my advisor about the issues with finding placement and how many offices I've contacted he told me it's nearly impossible to find a pediatric clinical placement at this point (and I am looking for Spring 2020!). When you have to sit out due to not finding a preceptor, they make you pay for that class still to keep your spot in the program. Robbery. I don't think I'm willing to continue to invest more time and money into this without a guarantee. Beyond disgusting that they continue admitting hundreds of students while being fully aware of this issue.
Sure did, had a preceptor all lined up, started the semester and just before clinicals started the preceptor decided they weren't going to take students. I was left high and dry with not so much as a sorry from the school. I had to sit out a semester, it was conveniently too late for a full refund so I sat out the semester only to just find out I was flunked by my clinical preceptor that I secured for the re-take of the course. This preceptor told me repeatedly "I think too much time has passed between when you took pharmacology and A&P and now you are out of the loop". Not my fault the preceptor I had lined up had an issue. I was moving along just fine until the clinicals started and now it seems like I'm derailed at every turn. I wrote the dean of the college when the first preceptor backed out asking if I had any recourse and was told nope, you should have had a backup plan. Really? It took me 3 months and alot of legwork just to find the first preceptor, your basically screwed if your preceptor falls and breaks a hip or has a family emergency but the college still collects the tuition. My school has in the fine print of the handbook that they are not responsible for mishaps involving the preceptor so they are divorcing themselves from the issue and the student is on their own. It is time the paying public stands up and demands something be done as these schools know full well what is going on yet they continue to accept 30 or more students per semester. The area I live in is overloaded with healthcare facilities and medical/nursing schools so there are herds of students vying for the schools and the clinical preceptorships. The new solution is the DNP which believe me is more about extra hours of paper writing than teaching any clinical skills.
naptimeRN
188 Posts
Two weeks left in this semester and in my advanced pharmacology class we have made it through 8 of 20 drug sections on the syllabus. I feel like I should get my money back. Also, the clinical coordinator (again, don't know what she actually does) has not responded to my emails regarding clinicals. One of my professors has not responded to an email I sent last Thursday regarding clarification on assignment. The director of the FNP program has not returned an email I sent regarding clinical and if I can do specialty since I can't find any pediatric. This program is awful.