Death Penalty Anesthesia

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This is not a debate about pro vs con Death Penalty.

Would you take a job performing this anesthesia?

Specializes in SICU,CVICU.
Dosages I've seen quoted:

sodium thiopental: 1-5 grams

pancuronium: 50-100 mg

potassium: quantities over 20 mEq IV rapid push

Nice article found at http://www.ncadp.org/html/report.htm

Nothing personal, but did you read that article? Pitiful. First comparing putting to death a rapist/molester/murderer with the holocaust is not only a horrible and entirely inaccurate interpretation of history but is a slap in the face to all those affected by the holocaust. The two have nothing in common. Furthermore, their knowledge of phamacodynamics and kinetics is obviously lacking. Sure, stp has a short half-life, but with the doses given redistribution would take a while. Comparing giving kcl with a MI is also quite lacking. Ask anyone that's had an AMI and the is quite substantial. Asystole is painless. :sleep: They then go on to take the majority of the article attacking the pharmaceutical companies in a sort of economic terrorism. If one must go after those guys then do some good. Give some drugs to those that can't afford them. Forget about the criminals. They didn't show any mercy to their victims!

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Specializes in Acute Med, Pediatric Hematology-Oncology.

And look how great they are! We have to pull their butts out of sling all the time. France is real stable these days,ha. What about those bombs in England and lets don't forget Ireland. Absence of a spine doesn't make for a stronger society\democracy.

canada doesnt have the death penalty. *checks for butt slings* nope. none there ;)

i might be canadian...but im not against the capital punishment. but i find it very interesting that an anethesiologist would be required to perform assist in this procedure. after all, isnt the end result of the procedure to ensure that the prisoner dies? from what i've observed, an anesthesiologist has a complicated job that ensures that the patient remains stable and unconscious (yes, i know there's slightly more to it than that...but this is in really simplistic terms). but ultimately, they also want the patient to remain alive. thats their job. so wouldnt it be outside their scope of practice to participate in a procedure that actively kills a person?

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Specializes in SICU,CVICU.
canada doesnt have the death penalty. *checks for butt slings* nope. none there ;)

i might be canadian...but im not against the capital punishment. but i find it very interesting that an anethesiologist would be required to perform assist in this procedure. after all, isnt the end result of the procedure to ensure that the prisoner dies? from what i've observed, an anesthesiologist has a complicated job that ensures that the patient remains stable and unconscious (yes, i know there's slightly more to it than that...but this is in really simplistic terms). but ultimately, they also want the patient to remain alive. thats their job. so wouldnt it be outside their scope of practice to participate in a procedure that actively kills a person?

Ah, come on Sarah...Canada isn't Europe. :lol2: There are definitely lots of ethical and legal considerations with this. If someone wanted to contest it I'm sure it would drag through the legal system for years. Perhaps the ama just thought the best way to handle is "just say no" and be done with it. Done really blame 'em.

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Nothing personal, but did you read that article?

I simply listed it as a reference for the drugs and dosages used.

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Specializes in Long Term Care.

Maybe instead of the DEATH penalty by lethal injection we should start disciplining our criminals with the use of a cane.... Would nurses and CRNAs be required to care for them and provided pain relief then? Would THAT be ethical? You know if the whole point were to inflict as much pain as possible with out causing death?

Sorry, I belive in the death penalty. I just wish the appeals process was shorter. That gives hope where there is none.

But the cane... Like in Thialand... the back buttocks and the thighs... I think that if that were implemented...Well suffice to say that if more parents implemented a spanking(not a beating, there is a difference) or two when they were little some of the modern day criminals would not be where they are.

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Specializes in Too many to list.

I like the idea of "judicial sleep" from a science fiction novel I read recently.

The person judged guilty would not be put to death, but rather put to sleep and maintained for the duration of their sentence on a type of life support that just kept them fed, hydrated, and in good skin condition. Of course, the sentence could be so extensive that they would actually die in their sleep.

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Specializes in Long Term Care.
I like the idea of "judicial sleep" from a science fiction novel I read recently.

The person judged guilty would not be put to death, but rather put to sleep and maintained for the duration of their sentence on a type of life support that just kept them fed, hydrated, and in good skin condition. Of course, the sentence could be so extensive that they would actually die in their sleep.

In the book you read, was there like some kind of accident that the prisoners were waking up? Like some kind of solar flare where everthing electrical was totally off line?

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Specializes in Too many to list.
In the book you read, was there like some kind of accident that the prisoners were waking up? Like some kind of solar flare where everthing electrical was totally off line?

Sorry, I don't remember. What I did remember was the reason for this type of punishment was to try to satisfy those who did not believe in capital punishment, yet had to agree that the perpetrators of horrendous crimes such as sexual predators who killed or tortured victims, must pay in a way that satisfied society. Judicial sleep was not considered painful, but it was likened

to death. The sentences were long, and if the convicted did survive the punishment, they would be very old at the end of the sentence. Being released into a world of the future, that they would not fit into, and would not understand, was also part of the punishment.

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yeah - we should probably pay millions of dollars for murderers and rapists' comfort.... please.

i think that using your personal feelings about capital punishment to argue whether CRNA's or MDA's should give the medication is just another way to promote your own opinion.... just like abortion - i have a choice on whether i want to provide that anesthesia - i don't - i do however agree that an anesthesia trained individual should provide anesthesia for abortions.... the death penalty is no different... if someone is being executed - anesthesia should be provided otherwise it is cruel (not that it isn't recompense.... however..personal feelings aside...)

so - why shouldn't CRNA's and MDA's provide the pain relief in the form of anesthesia - someone else could inject the K+ if that is your big argument...but when we fight so hard to be the only ones to utilize anesthetic drugs...why would you so adamantly give that right away now.... personal beliefs should not change our practice as a whole - one should however have the right to refuse to practice in such a setting.

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I think you may be missing the point here. CRNAs practice under the nurse practice acts of their various states, just as anesthesiologists practice under their state's medical practice act. Both of these practice acts in Texas prevent nurses and docs, no matter what their training or board certifications, from assisting with patient death or euthanasia. I believe virtually all 50 states have similar practice acts. This affects us (RNs) in that we may not establish an IV for the lethal injection. In Huntsville, this is done by paramedics who volunteer to start the lines (2 for each customer). Just as with firing squads and other capital punishment systems, there are multiple "buttons" for the executioners to push...only one of which is connected to the machine that automatically injects the drugs one after the other. Under this system, no one knows whose button was the one that actually caused the sequence to start. With firing squads, only one rifle had a bullet, the others had blanks...same idea, no one knew whose shot actually killed the convict. In California, the ethics dilemma centered around prison officials wanting physicians to determine if the convict was pain free and asleep before the additional drugs were administered. The physicians, who happened to be anesthesiologists declined to make this determination. They were not asked to start the IV nor push the medications, since their medical practice act precluded those actions. In Texas, the dose of Pentothal is 5 grams and the dose of Pavulon is 50 mgs. Now before you get wrapped around the axle regarding abortions, nursing care of the mother is certainly acceptable, including anesthesia...a fetus is not a living being according to the law.

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hey ... i couldn't give two you know what's about who puts death row prisoners to death...

i just find it ironic that as CRNA's we fight tooth and nail to provide anesthesia - but in this case - some would gladly give it away because they don't agree w/ the death penalty..

all i am saying is whether we provide anesthesia or not should not be determined by your views on what anesthesia is being given for...i understand the whole "do no harm" controversy...that was not my point.

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Specializes in ER/ MEDICAL ICU / CCU/OB-GYN /CORRECTION.

Thank you Mike -- what a great question and one I am not sure that I can answer with total assuredness but I do think so.

I would like to share my expiriences from working in a federal prison in the health clinic.This happens everyday

Without warning either day or night we would receive a phone call from the federal marshals and be given a list of inmates who were to be called down for a physical as they are being deported from the country. The timing of this was never known to anyone including the warden. Even the persons attorney or family living here were not notified until they had left the country and then only when they came to see them.

The overwhelming majority of these were young men or an occasional young woman inmate who were from all over the world. The typical offender was a drug stuffer or drug packer who had been arrested served thier sentence with the final part being deportation.

Our job was to do a brief physical exam, make sure that no one had any kind of fever flu or illness that would prohibit a them flying to thier country of orgin. This was done more to protect the federal marshals than for the inmates well being.

When they came to the clinic I did note persons from the Latin countries and Europe were extremely excited and on deportation day very happy. Often exclaiming, how when they got to thier homelands they would see their girlfriend's wives and thier mothers would be cooking a festival reunion dinner.

Unlike, the patient's from Saudi Arabia, China, Yemen and several others who in many times would begin to tremble-- become diaphoretic -- have either convulsive sobs or become in a catatonic state.

I was ignorant as I was I did not understand until one of the officers told me that these people would be executed either by gunshot or beheading immediately upon arrival to thier country and would never see thier families.

The injustice that we in this country were deporting persons to be executed came to such a point that I had to resign as I no longer could be part of the system.

These patients/inmates had served out thier assigned sentence were as young sometimes as 18 19 yrs old men and women, who in the desperate straights of poverty attempted to bring benefit for their families.

In no way am I justifying the actions-however I have never been desperate for food or health care or see my children die because of poverty.

These folks were not drug addict's -- However certainly participated in supplying.

I do know that in some of these cases they were forced to do so and without doing so would lead to the penalty of death of them or their entire family.

So the question is could I participate in anesthesia - in regards to death penalty-- frankly given the scenes that I have witnessed in the emergency room where children in this country have been butchered and raped and knowing that America sends others to their deaths in a much more barbaric way.

Yes I probably could assist in anesthesia. Do I know for sure NO . But in my core gut given DNA convictions yes honestly feel to I could assist-- knowing I was going to help a person or prevent them from suffering unlike those we daily condem to horrible death for trying to live.

Marc

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