I remembered reading an old post awhile ago where an NP (who got her DNP) was told by Human Resources that she couldn't use the title "Doctor" at the hospital, because it would mislead the patients.
I am wondering if anyone has seen or heard anything similar where they work (you personally or someone else).
If hospitals are "all about introductions", I see nothing wrong with telling a patient, "Hi, I'm Dr. Smith, I'm a Nurse Practioner"...I see no difference between that and saying, "Hi, I'm Dr. Jones and I'm your Cardiologist".
To me, that would be a HUGE slap in the fact to someone who has worked hard for that degree, because they are entitled to use that title.
Wow, there is a lot of energy expended on this debate. Looking at all of the health professions who would like to be called "doctor", it's no wonder that HR put their feet down just to establish a little order.
The fact of the matter is, in most hospital settings a doctor is always going to be used for a physician. I think it's less important to get hung up about whether someone refers to you as "doctor" and more important to carry your profession and calling with pride and professionalism. If a person came up to me and said, "Hello, I'm Nancy, a nurse practitioner here in...", and she was intelligent and carried herself like a professional, I would give her opinions the same amount of attention and respect as any physician.
I prefer to just circumvent the entire thing and just be able to come up to a patient and say, "Hi, I'm Sam, your nurse anesthetist. I'll be handling the anesthesia for your surgery... :D"
Absolutely not! That statistic comes from the IOM report Crossing the Quality Chasm: A new health system for the 21st century and did not specifically mention NPs. What I am saying is that dissemination and implementation of interventions demonstrated effective in RTCs is still taking upwards of 20 years to get into routine practice. If you look up how many operative patients receive their abx within one hour of surgery and their next 3 doses within 24 hours, an intervention proven to reduce LOS as well as M&M, the findings are dismal. When you see how many patients actually do not receive a statin and a beta blocker after an MI, it is appauling. The MAJORITY of patients with asthma do not receive treatment congruent with the accepted guidelines. Their health care providers are likely excellent, caring people who are attempting to utilize EBP and probably doing pretty well. The fact is that there are barriers that must be overcome, and doing so takes education and research, as well as committment on the part of individuals and organizations to make it happen.
EBP is not TR. You will notice that I did not mention EBP in my post.
The DNP is not aimed at making NPs and MDs equal. Were that the case, we would be in residency, not taking two years of graduate level statistics and learning how to conduct research that utilized "real world" settings. Most MDs are not taught much of the content we are learning, although some programs have recently added EBP curriculum. MD/PhD programs do of course, and those are expanding.
The fact of the matter is, in most hospital settings a doctor is always going to be used for a physician.
Wellllll, it used to be considered a "fact" that lots of people were going to die of infectious disease before age 30, and we managed to change that ... This "fact" can be changed over time, also, if enough people want to. Many of us already make a point of referring to physicians as "physicians" rather than "doctors." "Doctor" is a title for someone (anyone) with a doctoral degree, not a job description -- as in "Dr. Jones" who is a "physician."
I'm not personally big on titles, either, but I do bristle at the idea of people being told they're not allowed to use a legitimate title they've earned.
If they had earned that title, they would have went to medical school. It's ridiculous to keep at this issue. It's not going to be agreed upon. The degree itself is ridiculous. It HAS been touted as being equal to that of a doctors education by Mundinger herself. I beleive those that want the use of this title are in the minority and always will be. The overwhelming majority of my NP colleagues are completely against the DNP and use of the title.
If they had earned that title, they would have went to medical school. It's ridiculous to keep at this issue. It's not going to be agreed upon. The degree itself is ridiculous. It HAS been touted as being equal to that of a doctors education by Mundinger herself. I beleive those that want the use of this title are in the minority and always will be. The overwhelming majority of my NP colleagues are completely against the DNP and use of the title.
Are you suggesting that the MD degree is the only doctoral degree?? That will come as big news to my friends with PhDs in psychology, chemistry, nursing, divinity, and political science. A doctoral degree from an accredited university is a doctoral degree from an accredited university, regardless of which individuals may or may not approve.
I'm not, by any means, defending the DNP and would just point out again that that kook Mundinger is pretty much the only person suggesting that DNPs are "equal" to MDs (superior in some ways, she says) -- this is some sort of personal crusade on her part, not the view of the larger nursing community.
I'm also not arguing specifically in favor of doctorally-prepared nurses using the title -- there are many people, from a variety of disciplines, with doctoral degrees in healthcare settings, and, again, I object in general to the idea of telling anyone that they're not "allowed" to use a title which they have legitimately earned.
Are you suggesting that the MD degree is the only doctoral degree?? That will come as big news to my friends with PhDs in psychology, chemistry, nursing, divinity, and political science. A doctoral degree from an accredited university is a doctoral degree from an accredited university, regardless of which individuals may or may not approve.
I'm not, by any means, defending the DNP and would just point out again that that kook Mundinger is pretty much the only person suggesting that DNPs are "equal" to MDs (superior in some ways, she says) -- this is some sort of personal crusade on her part, not the view of the larger nursing community.
I'm also not arguing specifically in favor of doctorally-prepared nurses using the title -- there are many people, from a variety of disciplines, with doctoral degrees in healthcare settings, and, again, I object in general to the idea of telling anyone that they're not "allowed" to use a title which they have legitimately earned.
Quite frankly, I think that a lot of physicians just don't respect the DNP degree because they feel it's a load of crap-- there is no consistent curriculum across schools for this degree, it can be obtained online, and tons of these courses are filled with fluff like "nursing leadership." On top of that the leader of this entire movement, Mundinger, is claiming superiority of DNP's to physicians when half of her hand-picked DNP's couldn't even pass a watered down step III.
Quite frankly, I think that a lot of physicians just don't respect the DNP degree because they feel it's a load of crap-- there is no consistent curriculum across schools for this degree, it can be obtained online, and tons of these courses are filled with fluff like "nursing leadership." On top of that the leader of this entire movement, Mundinger, is claiming superiority of DNP's to physicians when half of her hand-picked DNP's couldn't even pass a watered down step III.
Once again --
1) I agree with you about the DNP. My own opinion is that advanced practice nursing education at the Master's level ain't broke, and doesn't need to be fixed.
2) Mundinger is not "leading" a "movement," she is a one-woman crusade (well, her and a few minions). Her crackpot pronouncements do NOT represent the views of the larger nursing community, or even the larger NP community.
3) This is not about people's personal opinions of DNP curricula. It's about whether physicians own the word "doctor," and whether or not they (and others) can tell people that they can't use an academic title they've earned.
There's so much cheerleading on here I think I'm going to get a cavity. Remember why the DNP was created. Because the nursing profession recognized that the NP training was deficient. Even with a few more nursing theory and leadership courses and a few more hours, many still feel that not much has changed. If it makes the holder feel better, you can introduce yourself as "Dr.". Heck, everyone else in the hospital is doing it, so why not nursing. But that's probably the only change you'll actually perceive. Scope and pay won't change. With everyone wearing long white coats and introducing themselves as "Dr.", who does the patient still ask for? "Give me the person who is in charge". Of course, that will be the attending. At that very moment, you'll realize that those two extra years of your life pursuing this "doctorate" was a waste.
I agree. The MD's and med students should in no way feel threatened that the "peons" are catching up because they are NOT and never will unless they make the DNP program require the students to do an internship and residency like the physicians do. until they require the DNP students to do some real "doctor" stuff instead of more theory classes, more paper writing, more statistic classes and whatever other busy work they can manage in those two years, it is just wasted time. DNP's will never be at the level of a physician, that is why we are considered mid-levels. what else would you have us called, that is what we are.
If I were a physician, I would take offense to the fact that a DNP thinks she/he is at the level of the physician when they are plainly not because they do not have the proper training to attain that level. I don't knowwhat they were thinking when who ever thought this up, thought it up! But they obviously were not thinking too clearly.
NP's are a very important, intricate part of the health care system, but really, they will never be physicians. I am close to graduating as an FNP and don't even fathom to think of myself on the same level as a physician. I consider myself to be an enormous assett at the level I have attained, I don't intend to pursue my DNP for just the reasons I have mentioned. It would be an embarrassment to call myself Doctor even though my degree states that I may do that, when in the back of most NP's minds they are thinking "I am really a Doctor now' when they plainly are not.
My husband will begin his residency in Internal Medicine this July; and after sticking with him through medical school, I can say anecdotally that there is no comparison when it comes to the rigorousness of the MD curriculum -- both in demands on time and quality of content. (And we still have residency and fellowship to go!). Few nurses in their training will be subject to the intense experience of grueling weeks that are supposed to be capped at 80 hours but rarely are.
I completely agree. PhD training, no matter how rigorous, still pales in comparison.I watched my brother go through MD training in the 90's and watching the grueling hours and the intense level of training (I've yet to encounter a single nursing program that requires Biochem, organic chemistry, etc.) was enough for me to forever know the distinction between MD's and RN/MSN/PhD.
I work with occupational therapists, physical therapists and pharmacists who have a PhD and none of them go by "Dr." I don't see why this can't be the same.
People in this thread keep saying that NPs are mid-level medical professionals and that nursing and medicine are completely different jobs. I'm working towards becoming an FNP in a traditional family practice where I will be a primary care provider. There will be no physician over me and I will be providing the same care, Rx prescriptions and advice that a doctor does. The education and function of an NP must be thorough and similar enough for this to be allowed and working well for patients. I think in the hospital setting, nurses and drs. serve very different functions and nurses are usually below drs., but there is an entire world of primary care outside of hospitals.
The formal introductions that everyone is offering seem to work well in the hospital setting where the patient is seeing many professionals in many departments, but I'm still iffy on what a nice intro would be when I'm meeting a new patient in private practice. If I'm a primary care provider for that patient, for all intents and purposes, I am that person's dr. It also seems easier to call me doc than 'nurse practitioner so-and-so' or 'nurse' which in this country, doesn't seem to offer the same designation of authority. The easiest thing to do might be what my grandma's NP says: 'Just call me Jill'.
People in this thread keep saying that NPs are mid-level medical professionals and that nursing and medicine are completely different jobs. I'm working towards becoming an FNP in a traditional family practice where I will be a primary care provider. There will be no physician over me and I will be providing the same care, Rx prescriptions and advice that a doctor does. The education and function of an NP must be thorough and similar enough for this to be allowed and working well for patients. I think in the hospital setting, nurses and drs. serve very different functions and nurses are usually below drs., but there is an entire world of primary care outside of hospitals.
The formal introductions that everyone is offering seem to work well in the hospital setting where the patient is seeing many professionals in many departments, but I'm still iffy on what a nice intro would be when I'm meeting a new patient in private practice. If I'm a primary care provider for that patient, for all intents and purposes, I am that person's dr. It also seems easier to call me doc than 'nurse practitioner so-and-so' or 'nurse' which in this country, doesn't seem to offer the same designation of authority. The easiest thing to do might be what my grandma's NP says: 'Just call me Jill'.
We're really trying to get away from the word "midlevel." For some reason, people started grouping PA's and NP's together, but we're an entirely separate entity. We're not a "mid" anything, we're professionals who provide advanced nursing care...not "mid" medicine.
nurseman78, BSN, RN, NP
199 Posts
Wow, there is a lot of energy expended on this debate. Looking at all of the health professions who would like to be called "doctor", it's no wonder that HR put their feet down just to establish a little order.
The fact of the matter is, in most hospital settings a doctor is always going to be used for a physician. I think it's less important to get hung up about whether someone refers to you as "doctor" and more important to carry your profession and calling with pride and professionalism. If a person came up to me and said, "Hello, I'm Nancy, a nurse practitioner here in...", and she was intelligent and carried herself like a professional, I would give her opinions the same amount of attention and respect as any physician.
I prefer to just circumvent the entire thing and just be able to come up to a patient and say, "Hi, I'm Sam, your nurse anesthetist. I'll be handling the anesthesia for your surgery... :D"