The neutrality agreement the CNA and the SEIU obtained between Tenet Healthcare and the SEIU has been ruled as "Illegal Assistance to Unions" by the National Labor Relations Board. This precident was set after a suit filed by a Los Angeles area RN from Whittier Hospital Medical Center.
The Hospital has formally anounced that they will no longer recognize the CNA as the bargaining agent for the Registered Nurses at that facility. Talks with the SEIU have ended. The CNA has also agreed to REFUND union dues collected under this illegal agreement.
This affects Tenet and former Tenet employees who may have had dues collected illegally under this "Neutrality Agreement". If your hospital voted in the CNA and/or the SEIU under this agreement and the union won but not by a majority of the bargaining unit you may be able to have the results of the election overturned and your unlawfully collected dues refunded to you.
Specializes in Cardiac Critical Care, Trauma, Neuro..
I think it's pretty obvious that most union opponents are cheap. Like most people, they want something for nothing. That's human nature and not unusual.
They love the ratio law and other benefits but they always complain about the dues, even when the better pay raises that they wouldn't get otherwise more than cover the dues ...
Really, it all comes down to the greed. The rest of it is concocted nonsense to try to justify the fact that they're too cheap to pay union dues.
Why is it that it seems to resort to name calling? I have been called hateful, greedy and cheap (is cheap and greedy kinda the same thing?) in just the last couple of posts. Do I need to post a picture of me holding a puppy while a make a donation to the local childrens shelter here? You're hurtin' my feelings here. I am a sensative guy.
I gladly pay membership fees to organizations I respect and believe in. I asked nothing of the CNA and I want nothing from them. Anything that needs to get done can and will get done without the interference of the unions. The hostility and poor me attitude created by the unions and their supporters is so sad. Why must the unions insist that we are weak and can only succeed with their help? Why do they not promote the many many strengths of nurses and nursing instead of the few weakness?
Why do the unions demand a union security clause in their contracts? If the unions way is so superior and so effective then they have nothing to fear. Everyone will want to jump on the bandwagon, become members and pay dues right? Tell me why the unions insist on the "pay your dues or lose your job" clause? Why can't they make enough money on voluntary membership based on what they have to offer? I am serious here. Voluntary membership like the AARP or the NRA. These organizations support a political agenda focused on issues related to the interests of their members. You must agree that they have a large membership base, have special interests yet wield much influence. No!, the unions insist on a captive membership, with dues garnished from your wages if you do not give it up voluntarily.
Answer those questions without name calling or word twisting.
Everyone in the hospital has to pay dues because everyone gets to benefit from the contract that the union negotiates. Seriously, why should you get something for free when you wouldn't have it unless the other nurses were paying dues? That is ridiculous.
FOr the record, I have never called you any names, but I would also appreciate if you stopped characterizing me as a fear mongering, "poor me" kind of person too. I do believe in nurses' strength- as a group. That's all the union is to me.
Sherwood: Look at the post I was referring to ... I was not referring to you personally but union opponents in general.
Every union opponent that I know personally, who also happens to work in a CNA facility, loves the ratio law and loves the better working conditions that the union provides. They freely talk about the high ratios and poor working conditions they experienced prior to the arrival of the union (which they voted against, btw.)
Yet, even though they acknowledge the benefits, they still don't think they should pay union dues. That is their number one complaint.
I ask why they don't quit if they really don't like the union dues (which, btw, is tax deductible for not all but at least some of them). They say it's still a better job than anywhere else.
Well ... duh .... it's because of the union (and, btw, it's the only union facility in my area ... they choose not to work in the other non-union facilities although they easily could if they wanted to.)
Sorry .... but it still boils down to being cheap. They simply don't want to pay for the benefits they're receiving.
Specializes in Cardiac Critical Care, Trauma, Neuro..
Sherwood: Look at the post I was referring to ... I was not referring to you personally but union opponents in general.
Every union opponent that I know personally, who also happens to work in a CNA facility, loves the ratio law and loves the better working conditions that the union provides. They freely talk about the high ratios and poor working conditions they experienced prior to the arrival of the union (which they voted against, btw.)
Yet, even though they acknowledge the benefits, they still don't think they should pay union dues. That is their number one complaint.
I ask why they don't quit if they really don't like the union dues (which, btw, is tax deductible for not all but at least some of them). They say it's still a better job than anywhere else.
Well ... duh .... it's because of the union (and, btw, it's the only union facility in my area ... they choose not to work in the other non-union facilities although they easily could if they wanted to.)
Sorry .... but it still boils down to being cheap. They simply don't want to pay for the benefits they're receiving.
I absolutely positively guarantee you that for 99.999% of the people I know, it is not about the dues money. It is about not having a choice. It is about not supporting the politics of the union. It is about not really having a say in the decisions of the union.
Take Scripps Hospital in Encinitas California for example. The union was voted in a couple of years ago. Since then they have failed to negotiate an acceptable contract for the nurses. They had a vote that gave the nurses two choices, accept the hospitals proposal or do not accept the proposal and strike. Many nurses wanted a third choice....do not accept the proposal but do not strike. They were not allowed that choice. Since that time the union has called two strikes, the first time about half the nurses decided to come to work and not strike, the second time about 75% of the nurses showed up for work. A large group of nurses want to decertify the CNA because they have proven themselves ineffective. They union, not wanting to lose this hospital and the hundreds of thousands of dollars in dues, file repeated ULP's as blocking charges in order to prevent a vote on decertification.
If the CNA wanted to be fair and truly wanted a democratic process to proceed, they would allow the vote and let the nurses decide in a fair and democratic election. See www.notinourhouse.org read the website. Read the bulletin board.
If an organization was so good and the members so truly caring about their "cause" then it would be voluntary. You would pay a voluntary membership fee and participate or not in actively supporting your cause. I and some friends are members in a couple of different organizations that support things that we enjoy and believe in. We donate time and money to those causes. Many, many others benefit from our efforts. Do I care that others enjoy the fruits of our labor? NO! In fact I am proud of the fact that I can do what I do. This is the way it should be.
The union is not the reason your job is better, you and your collegues are the reason it is better. The union did not send down a group of motivated hotshot nurses to make your world better after you voted them in. You were already there! You already had the power and the voices. The union is just taking the credit and your money.
Take Scripps Hospital in Encinitas California for example. The union was voted in a couple of years ago. Since then they have failed to negotiate an acceptable contract for the nurses. They had a vote that gave the nurses two choices, accept the hospitals proposal or do not accept the proposal and strike. Many nurses wanted a third choice....do not accept the proposal but do not strike. They were not allowed that choice. Since that time the union has called two strikes, the first time about half the nurses decided to come to work and not strike, the second time about 75% of the nurses showed up for work. A large group of nurses want to decertify the CNA because they have proven themselves ineffective.
Well, according to the San Diego Tribune, 94 percent of the nurses voted to reject the hospital's proposal. If they were really divided on the issue, you'd think the vote would be a lot less than 94 percent.
As far as who crossed the picket line, the articles conflict on that point. One article says few crossed the picket line, while the other says 54 percent crossed. So ... who knows?
One of the articles does mention this:
"A number of nurses participating in the strike said they did not want to strike but would do whatever was necessary to get the hospital to work with the group."
There is no mention of nurses wanting to decertify CNA which, one would think, the local newspaper might mention in their coverage of the issue.
Perhaps the nurses who are against paying union dues do not want to see the costs passed on to their patients or know that under union protection it is hard to fire a slacker. Perhaps they are exemplory employees who know that means nothing under a dictatorship of union control. Perhaps these nurses support Governor Schwarzenegger and don't want to see their money wasted trying to oppose him on his reforms. There are lot's of reasons people don't want unions so casting these dispersions does nothing to strenghten your agrument but creates the sterotype of the union thug and union nurses pressuring ones that don't want to join the union into joining.
Pardon me while I look for the barf bag. Please. Higher nurses pay being passed onto the patients. So nurses shouldn't demand higher pay for the absolutely dismal working conditions that they have to work under? I don't know what planet you are on, but the last time I checked, others who do half the work that nurses do are paid a significantly higher wage than us. Without having to work nights, holidays, coming being exposed to fatal non treatable diseases, without having to do back breaking work, the list goes on.
Martyr Marys like you are what is wrong with nursing. If you would like to work for high school drop out wages, so be it. But don't condemn the rest of us who want a return on our investment for a college education. We want a wage commensurate with the education, responsibility, difficulty, inconvenience to ourselves and families, and exposure to numerous body secretions and waste, etc. as a reward and to encourage nurses to stay at the bedside.This is one of the reasons that nurses have left the bedside in droves. If we do not improve the working conditions, and improve compensation, we will never be able to attract and retain nurses to stay at bedside. As the new grads walk in the front door, they are looking over their shoulders for the exit. It shoudn't be that way. Put your effort into making nursing a more attractive career, that nurses want to stay in.
Exlemplary nurses work next to nurses who don't always carry their weight, what else is knew? There are ways to get rid of bad nurses. The rest of us shouldn't have to suffer without a union because of few bad apples. You have know workplace protection without a contract.
As for Shwarzenegger, his cronies have put millions into his war chest to get favorable legislstion passed at the expense of the nurses and patients. You must not read all the post on this listserve.That, by the way, costs patients far more than higher nurses salaries. If you looked at the studies, higher levels of nurses at the bedside, prevent expensive complications, and save the hospitals and insurance companies $$$ in the long run The push to fight the staffing ratios is more about control, than anythng else. Anyone who has been around for any length of time can see that. The are afraid of losing control of the nurses, and afraid of the power that they would wield if nurses ever figured out how much control they can really have. Nurses just have to find their voice, and use it.
Please don't tell the rest of us what the problems are. WE are not the problem, nor the biggest of the hospitals expenses, even though they would like us and everyone to believe it. Don't forget, patients come to the hospital for NURSING CARE THAT CANNOT BE ACCOMPLISHED AT HOME, OR A MORE COST EFFECTIVE SETTING. If they did not NEED nursing care they would not be there. Patients do not need more administrators, or managers, they need MORE NURSES. That alone should indicate that WE should be the recipient of higher salaries, not the administrators. I do not apologize for wanting a higher salary. I have earned it with my education, training expertise, and hard work.
Pardon me while I look for the barf bag. Please. Higher nurses pay being passed onto the patients. So nurses shouldn't demand higher pay for the absolutely dismal working conditions that they have to work under? I don't know what planet you are on, but the last time I checked, others who do half the work that nurses do are paid a significantly higher wage than us. Without having to work nights, holidays, coming being exposed to fatal non treatable diseases, without having to do back breaking work, the list goes on.
Martyr Marys like you are what is wrong with nursing. If you would like to work for high school drop out wages, so be it. But don't condemn the rest of us who want a return on our investment for a college education. We want a wage commensurate with the education, responsibility, difficulty, inconvenience to ourselves and families, and exposure to numerous body secretions and waste, etc. as a reward and to encourage nurses to stay at the bedside.This is one of the reasons that nurses have left the bedside in droves. If we do not improve the working conditions, and improve compensation, we will never be able to attract and retain nurses to stay at bedside. As the new grads walk in the front door, they are looking over their shoulders for the exit. It shoudn't be that way. Put your effort into making nursing a more attractive career, that nurses want to stay in.
Exlemplary nurses work next to nurses who don't always carry their weight, what else is knew? There are ways to get rid of bad nurses. The rest of us shouldn't have to suffer without a union because of few bad apples. You have know workplace protection without a contract.
As for Shwarzenegger, his cronies have put millions into his war chest to get favorable legislstion passed at the expense of the nurses and patients. You must not read all the post on this listserve.That, by the way, costs patients far more than higher nurses salaries. If you looked at the studies, higher levels of nurses at the bedside, prevent expensive complications, and save the hospitals and insurance companies $$$ in the long run The push to fight the staffing ratios is more about control, than anythng else. Anyone who has been around for any length of time can see that. The are afraid of losing control of the nurses, and afraid of the power that they would wield if nurses ever figured out how much control they can really have. Nurses just have to find their voice, and use it.
Please don't tell the rest of us what the problems are. WE are not the problem, nor the biggest of the hospitals expenses, even though they would like us and everyone to believe it. Don't forget, patients come to the hospital for NURSING CARE THAT CANNOT BE ACCOMPLISHED AT HOME, OR A MORE COST EFFECTIVE SETTING. If they did not NEED nursing care they would not be there. Patients do not need more administrators, or managers, they need MORE NURSES. That alone should indicate that WE should be the recipient of higher salaries, not the administrators. I do not apologize for wanting a higher salary. I have earned it with my education, training expertise, and hard work.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
By the way, William SRNA, if bedside nursing is so wonderful why are you punchng out and going on to become a CRNA? Where you will have a fraction of the aggravation of a bedside nurse and make three times, or more for your work. How about working for the pay of a Respiratory Therapist as a CRNA? Aren't you afraid that the higher cost of your CRNA salary will be passed onto the patients and increase costs to the hospital? I will bet that when the shoe is on the other foot, it is a different story.
By the way, William SRNA, if bedside nursing is so wonderful why are you punchng out and going on to become a CRNA? Where you will have a fraction of the aggravation of a bedside nurse and make three times, or more for your work. How about working for the pay of a Respiratory Therapist as a CRNA? Aren't you afraid that the higher cost of your CRNA salary will be passed onto the patients and increase costs to the hospital? I will bet that when the shoe is on the other foot, it is a different story.
Yeah. That remark about passing on the cost to the patients is classic.
In a landmark study published by JAMA, it was determined that the risk of patient mortality increased 7 percent with each additional patient that bedside RN's had to juggle. Of course, a SRNA probably wouldn't be concerned about that since they're only dealing with one patient.
But the patients might worry about it. Let's see ... if we go back to the days of 12 patients ... that would be 50 percent increase in mortality over the current ratios.
While they're dying ... I wonder how much patients might care about saving those costs.
Pardon me while I look for the barf bag. Please. Higher nurses pay being passed onto the patients. So nurses shouldn't demand higher pay for the absolutely dismal working conditions that they have to work under? I don't know what planet you are on, but the last time I checked, others who do half the work that nurses do are paid a significantly higher wage than us. Without having to work nights, holidays, coming being exposed to fatal non treatable diseases, without having to do back breaking work, the list goes on.
Martyr Marys like you are what is wrong with nursing. If you would like to work for high school drop out wages, so be it. But don't condemn the rest of us who want a return on our investment for a college education. We want a wage commensurate with the education, responsibility, difficulty, inconvenience to ourselves and families, and exposure to numerous body secretions and waste, etc. as a reward and to encourage nurses to stay at the bedside.This is one of the reasons that nurses have left the bedside in droves. If we do not improve the working conditions, and improve compensation, we will never be able to attract and retain nurses to stay at bedside. As the new grads walk in the front door, they are looking over their shoulders for the exit. It shoudn't be that way. Put your effort into making nursing a more attractive career, that nurses want to stay in.
Exlemplary nurses work next to nurses who don't always carry their weight, what else is knew? There are ways to get rid of bad nurses. The rest of us shouldn't have to suffer without a union because of few bad apples. You have know workplace protection without a contract.
As for Shwarzenegger, his cronies have put millions into his war chest to get favorable legislstion passed at the expense of the nurses and patients. You must not read all the post on this listserve.That, by the way, costs patients far more than higher nurses salaries. If you looked at the studies, higher levels of nurses at the bedside, prevent expensive complications, and save the hospitals and insurance companies $$$ in the long run The push to fight the staffing ratios is more about control, than anythng else. Anyone who has been around for any length of time can see that. The are afraid of losing control of the nurses, and afraid of the power that they would wield if nurses ever figured out how much control they can really have. Nurses just have to find their voice, and use it.
Please don't tell the rest of us what the problems are. WE are not the problem, nor the biggest of the hospitals expenses, even though they would like us and everyone to believe it. Don't forget, patients come to the hospital for NURSING CARE THAT CANNOT BE ACCOMPLISHED AT HOME, OR A MORE COST EFFECTIVE SETTING. If they did not NEED nursing care they would not be there. Patients do not need more administrators, or managers, they need MORE NURSES. That alone should indicate that WE should be the recipient of higher salaries, not the administrators. I do not apologize for wanting a higher salary. I have earned it with my education, training expertise, and hard work.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Lindarn,
I only hear that you feel you deserve higher pay because you earned it with your education, training expertise and hard work." Respect and increasing renumeration are earned things in most places. I'd like to hear how you feel about being a nurse from the standpoint of helping others. Heart and soul, dedication to something bigger than you are,being there for those who entrust their lives to you all go along with having the knowledge and skill to do the job. Calling others with a differing opinion from you "Martyr Marys" only diminishes any point you wish to make regarding what you feel the nurses of today deserve.
For the record, I have been a nurse for a very long time. I do not consider myself a martyr but rather a professional who has dedicated many years to caring for others and standing up for what is right for my patients and my colleagues. I am very pleased to see nursing making big strides but I do not like some of the attitudes that I see coming from pro-union nurses. You can not demand respect. Respect is earned and there are many of us who are not impressed or pleased with the unprofessional tactics and public displays of unions recently.
There are many many nurses across this country who feel the same as I do. I appreciate your pride in your education and hard work. In the end we are all the same..........nurses caring for patients who come to us in need and expect the very best.
Let's all do that............TOGETHER. With no name calling, bullying, finger pointing, criticizing or demeaning language. Now THAT is being a professional.
Whether we are pro-union or against unionizing all together, all of us should be able to speak together in a professional manner for the good of our patients, colleagues and the community we serve.
If it's not about the dues money, then why is there a section entitled "Our Money Becomes Their Money!" on the website where, it's pretty obvious they're complaining about the dues money and how much CNA collects from the Scripps nurses.
Specializes in Cardiac Critical Care, Trauma, Neuro..
Ok. I did.
If it's not about the dues money, then why is there a section entitled "Our Money Becomes Their Money!" on the website where, it's pretty obvious they're complaining about the dues money and how much CNA collects from the Scripps nurses.
It's always about the dues money.
It is about what the CNA will do with the money. Like I said before I will gladly give money to or pay for something I decide on. The CNA's strike fund and politics is not what I want my money going to. I do not want a penny of my money supporting the politics of the CNA.
Why did you not answer my question about the "pay your dues or lose your job clause" demanded by the union? The union security clause is one of many issues I bring up yet you do not address those.
Why can't the CNA support it self on a voluntary membership basis? Because their will NEVER be enough Nurses who will voluntarily support the actions and the politics of the CNA. It is flat out not worth it. The CNA must rely on forced payment of union dues because that is the only way will profit.
It is about what the CNA will do with the money. Like I said before I will gladly give money to or pay for something I decide on. The CNA's strike fund and politics is not what I want my money going to. I do not want a penny of my money supporting the politics of the CNA.
Why did you not answer my question about the "pay your dues or lose your job clause" demanded by the union? The union security clause is one of many issues I bring up yet you do not address those.
Why can't the CNA support it self on a voluntary membership basis? Because their will NEVER be enough Nurses who will voluntarily support the actions and the politics of the CNA. It is flat out not worth it. The CNA must rely on forced payment of union dues because that is the only way will profit.
EVERY union collects union dues from its members, including ANA. Strike fund money pays nurse if they have to go out on strike. Just for the record, HOSPITALS, force the nurse to go on strike, by refusing to negotiate in good faith. Just for the record, I do not live in California any more (I married someone who was active duty Air Force, and moved to Washington State), I do not belong to CNA, however, I lived, worked, and went to school in Southern California. Why do I support unions? Because it is the only tool that the little guy has to recieve just compensation, benefits, and adress workplace concerns. I lived and worked in Southern California at a time when Southern California was notoriously anti union. I lived through the nursing staff having their 12 hour shifts pay reduced because of the allegations that ICU staff nurses worked 36 hours a week, but got paid for 40. We had that taken away from us, and were made to work for striaght pay the last 4 hours of our shift. We had absolutely no recourse, because we had no union contract.
I have unfortunately experienced the unpleasantness of having a union represent the nurses, that was totally ineffective, powerless, and actually made it worse to have a union, than not have one. You should get down on your knees that you have a union that actually does something, instead of only collecting dues. You shuold come up her to Wadshington State, and see what the nurses have to put up with from the hospital administration, management the physicians, etc, and your only recourse is worthless "grievances", and a kangaroo court of hospital administrators and the union reps.
The nurse here in Spokane, have not gotten a raise in about ten years. The "raises" that the union negotiated for us, was always eaten up in increased medical benefits costs. Their last contract that was negotiated gave the nurse a 5% raise, but increased the cost of medical benefits 20%. As the nurses came in to vote on the contract, they put in their paperwork to get out of WSNA.
Don't want your money to go into a strike fund and politics? How nice. What other weapon do the nurses have to get their message across, and how much should they take before enough is enough? How do you expect CNA to influence politics with nurse and patient friendly legislation if they don't have dues money to fund it?
Don't want to get involved in the dirty end of life as a staff nurse? How nice. As you go off into the sunset into your CRNA career that you have control over, the rest of the nurses are facing miserable working conditions, fighting for raises and rewards for their years of hard work, and face the senior years with broken bodies and measly pensions, from all the backbreaking years that they endured as staff nurses.
All the while you collect your six figure salary as a CRNA, in the nice OR, or your private practice office. It is well known the amount of money CRNA's make, and you have the personal negotiating power that staff nurses don't. Not to mention the far nicer quality of life that CRNA's have over staff nurses. Which by the way, is why nurses are flocking to CRNA programs to get out of bed side nursing. Or any other way that they can get out.
They are powerless without a strong union, as the nurses are here in Spokane with WSNA have found out. I left bedside nursing four years ago, and I exclusively do Legal Nurse Consulting, partly due to the miserable working conditions, pay, and benefits that exist in Spokane. And lets not forget, the awful "representation" by the WAshington State Nursing Association. I will tell you what. How about you trade CNA for WSNA, and see how you like their representation. You all can go back to 10 patient assignments on the med surg floors, minus 15% wage increases, increases in your medical benefits, physicians who still think that "MD" stands for "mighty deity", a state board of nursing that gave their "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval", to "medication aides", in nursing homes and assisted living facilities. These individuals dont't even have to have a HS diploma, and they are allowed to pass meds.
Don't want to pay union dues? Fine. Then forfeit the raises that CNA has gotten for you, the improved pension plan, medical benefits, and last but not least, you can start to take 10 patients at work and the union nurses will get 5. But you don't want to, do you. And the patient ratios will not apply to you when you are a CRNA collecting your six figure salary will it? But the staff nurses will be left with it. Big business wants to run the country. It takes alot of money to fight them. Money doesn't grow on trees. If you want positve work place changes, it takes money. And if it comes out of union dues, so be it. EVERYONE BENEFITS, even you.
CNA. like most organizaions, cannot support itself on voluntary contributions. Why? Because it takes money to run any organization, and cheap people like you, who want something for nothing, will not support it unless you have to. You complain, make haughty statements about, "NOT WANTING MY MONEY TO GO FOR POLITICS OR STRIKE FUNDS!!!" But as I just stated, I don't see you turning down the raises, better benefits, pensions, and better staffing ratios. Put your money where your mouth is and turn it down/give back all that has been won for you by CNA, and then whine about dues, etc. Then, and only then, will your complaints have an ounce of credibity.
Sherwood
223 Posts
Why is it that it seems to resort to name calling? I have been called hateful, greedy and cheap (is cheap and greedy kinda the same thing?) in just the last couple of posts. Do I need to post a picture of me holding a puppy while a make a donation to the local childrens shelter here? You're hurtin' my feelings here. I am a sensative guy.
I gladly pay membership fees to organizations I respect and believe in. I asked nothing of the CNA and I want nothing from them. Anything that needs to get done can and will get done without the interference of the unions. The hostility and poor me attitude created by the unions and their supporters is so sad. Why must the unions insist that we are weak and can only succeed with their help? Why do they not promote the many many strengths of nurses and nursing instead of the few weakness?
Why do the unions demand a union security clause in their contracts? If the unions way is so superior and so effective then they have nothing to fear. Everyone will want to jump on the bandwagon, become members and pay dues right? Tell me why the unions insist on the "pay your dues or lose your job" clause? Why can't they make enough money on voluntary membership based on what they have to offer? I am serious here. Voluntary membership like the AARP or the NRA. These organizations support a political agenda focused on issues related to the interests of their members. You must agree that they have a large membership base, have special interests yet wield much influence. No!, the unions insist on a captive membership, with dues garnished from your wages if you do not give it up voluntarily.
Answer those questions without name calling or word twisting.