Bush Administration Proposes Cut in Veteran Benefits

kmchugh · Mar 29, 2005

Gosh, there is such arrogance in this thread.

You know, I had much the same thought. Particularly among those without frame of reference.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you would find what I am saying arrogant. I am the one who must deal with the VA at least four times a year. Yet you would lecture me on what our veterans need.

So, you keep saying I don't know what your frame of reference is. I've told you mine. What's yours? VA employee?

KM

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 29, 2005

I mean no disrespect here but I think addressing people as "dear" in a debate is very condescending, irony or not. I think it's a way you put people in their place while you make your point and it really is a HUGE turn off Kevin. It does come off as arrogant. I respect your experience, and your service, but I don't want to listen to you when you come off this way, either. It makes it hard to want to GET your point.

But that is only my opinion, I know, and probably of little value since I don't use VA services myself. (just military hospitals). After all, who am I? Just a healthy veteran of 10 years' service myself---- and a wife of a veteran who probably WILL need these services due to two blown knees himself---- thanks to the AF requiring him to run on them for 20 years, not to mention partial hearing loss in both ears due to years of work on noisy flightlines. Hey, What right do I have to speak up anyhow huh????! :rolleyes:

redshiloh · Mar 29, 2005

OK, am not a vet, but I work with spinal cord injury vets. Due to cuts that are coming to our home care service, we are going to have to reduce the amount of care some veterans receive that makes it POSSIBLE for them to remain at home. These folks, some very young, will HAVE to go into a nursing home as a result. The cost of care for these vets will INCREASE, and there will definitely not be any savings for the federal government.

I just don't get it...does congress even really look at a situation before they make these decisions? Or is it all basically a party play.

We can argue all we want on these boards, but the bottom line is vets, who have been receiving services necessary to their survival is being cut.

Vets have to fight this in Washington.

LydiaNN · Mar 29, 2005

OK, am not a vet, but I work with spinal cord injury vets. Due to cuts that are coming to our home care service, we are going to have to reduce the amount of care some veterans receive that makes it POSSIBLE for them to remain at home. These folks, some very young, will HAVE to go into a nursing home as a result. The cost of care for these vets will INCREASE, and there will definitely not be any savings for the federal government.
I just don't get it...does congress even really look at a situation before they make these decisions? Or is it all basically a party play.
We can argue all we want on these boards, but the bottom line is vets, who have been receiving services necessary to their survival is being cut.
Vets have to fight this in Washington.

This same situation is happening among folks with disabilities who receive IHSS or Community Based or Nursing Home Waivers. Penny wise and pound foolish. It makes you wonder.

kmchugh · Mar 29, 2005

I mean no disrespect here but I think addressing people as "dear" in a debate is very condescending, irony or not. I think it's a way you put people in their place while you make your point and it really is a HUGE turn off Kevin. It does come off as arrogant.

Deb, I'm sorry, I really am. But how much more condescending can it be than to tell me that even though I live in the system you all are discussing, I don't know what I'm talking about. Now, if you had lived through an experience wherein you were the victim of severe sexual harrassment, and I told you to quit whining, you just didn't understand the male psyche, then we might be approaching the level of condescension I've put up with.

So much of what has so many of you all upset is veterans wanting treatment for non-service connected conditions. Go back and look at the posts from MedicalMT1, which had you up in arms. Boiled down, what happened to her was a result of the choices she made. She chose to go to a VA and put up with substandard treatment. When the appendix flared back up, she chose not to go back to the VA. She went to a civilian hospital, got the problem taken care of, but now thinks that somehow the government should pay for it based solely on the fact that she was a veteran. Her condition was in no way connected to her military service. And when I pointed out her own culpability in her having such high health care bills, her response was to take a swipe at how I ended up with a service connected condition. That's wasn't condescending? I trumped her, though, and since then she seems to have slunk away with nothing more to say. Where were your accusations about HER "putting people in their place?" You didn't seem to be quite so turned off then. Why is that, I wonder?

But that is only my opinion, I know, and probably of little value since I don't use VA services myself. (just military hospitals). After all, who am I? Just a healthy veteran of 10 years' service myself---- and a wife of a veteran who probably WILL need these services due to two blown knees himself---- thanks to the AF requiring him to run on them for 20 years, not to mention partial hearing loss in both ears due to years of work on noisy flightlines. Hey, What right do I have to speak up anyhow huh????!

Buckle up and prepare yourself, Deb. Going to military hospitals in no way prepares you for the outright abuse your husband is going to endure at the VA. Perhaps he'll get lucky, and end up being treated at one of those "good" VA's I keep hearing about, but never seem to be able to find.

Wait till he comes home in a funk because for the third time, his needs "fell through the cracks." I waited six months for assignment to a primary care provider here in Memphis, a process that was supposed to take two weeks, because my paperwork kept "falling through the cracks." I waited two months for delivery of a knee brace I was supposed to have again in two weeks because they "forgot to put the order in. You just fell through the cracks." There are so many damn cracks in this VA, I keep waiting for it to just collapse.

Wait until you see him in tears because of his frustration in dealing with a system that clearly doesn't care, because they don't have to! Or because an RN closes a door in his face (literally) after he's already waited four hours, just because she wants to talk to a friend on the phone. Come to me then and tell me about condescension. Tell me about how bad you feel for those veterans trying to take money out of the system for non-service connected conditions. And tell me how quickly you would like to see the whole VA health care system tossed in the can and the care farmed out to private providers.

Kevin McHugh

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 29, 2005

Kevin said: Deb, I'm sorry, I really am. But how much more condescending can it be than to tell me that even though I live in the system you all are discussing, I don't know what I'm talking about. Now, if you had lived through an experience wherein you were the victim of severe sexual harrassment, and I told you to quit whining, you just didn't understand the male psyche, then we might be approaching the level of condescension I've put up with.

I never said once you don't know what you are talking about. I have never disrespected you in any way. I just hate being condesended to in order for you to make a point. Your points get lost when you do that. That was what I was trying to point out. And we do have the right to our opinion and expression of our concern, don't we? You don't have the "lock" on all the info regarding the entire VA system and its treatment of every vet in it do you? Just as I don't regarding all matters of active duty service. I do agree with you: It's a big system and people ARE falling through the cracks. There are other vets I know personally who got lousy treatment.

However, If the VA hospitals suck as badly as you say, (and I have heard quite the opposite from some people so I think it varies by facility)---- why would it be reasonable for Bush and Co to even discuss CUTS of any sort in the future????? What kind of sense does that make? How can we make any cuts and not further compromise vet care in the future? I am glad you are "getting yours" in some way, but there are many who follow you (and some current ones) that are NOT getting served. If things are bad now, how much better will they get if budget cuts are made? How about fixing what is broken instead of tossing it and then trying to figure out how to pay for it? That makes no sense to me.

Kevin said: So much of what has so many of you all upset is veterans wanting treatment for non-service connected conditions. Go back and look at the posts from MedicalMT1, which had you up in arms. Boiled down, what happened to her was a result of the choices she made. She chose to go to a VA and put up with substandard treatment. When the appendix flared back up, she chose not to go back to the VA. She went to a civilian hospital, got the problem taken care of, but now thinks that somehow the government should pay for it based solely on the fact that she was a veteran. Her condition was in no way connected to her military service. And when I pointed out her own culpability in her having such high health care bills, her response was to take a swipe at how I ended up with a service connected condition. That's wasn't condescending? I trumped her, though, and since then she seems to have slunk away with nothing more to say. Where were your accusations about HER "putting people in their place?" You didn't seem to be quite so turned off then. Why is that, I wonder?

You "trumped" her? And that is not condescending? I am quite frankly disgusted that anyone feels they have to "trump" anyone else in such a sensitive and important issue. It's a debate, not a poker game.

I give you yours, however, Kevin and I agree on this too; it was TOTALLY OUT OF LINE for anyone to swipe at you regarding your service-connected injury. I have always thanked you and respected your service to our country. Again, ONE person did this, why not take it PM w/her and address the rest of us respectfully instead of trying to "trump" us? The whole tone of your posts has to this point, been extremely condescending and arrogant, at least to me.

Kevin says:Buckle up and prepare yourself, Deb. Going to military hospitals in no way prepares you for the outright abuse your husband is going to endure at the VA. Perhaps he'll get lucky, and end up being treated at one of those "good" VA's I keep hearing about, but never seem to be able to find.

So what do you suggest? Again, cuts are not gonna make this situation a helluva lot better are they???? And who will fund privitization? Who WILL take care of his service-related injuries/hearing loss then? Hopefully, we will have other insurance, cause I do agree w/you on this count. VA care is severely lacking in both compassion and resources in many ways. It will remain to be seen how we do when he retires.

Kevin says:Wait till he comes home in a funk because for the third time, his needs "fell through the cracks." I waited six months for assignment to a primary care provider here in Memphis, a process that was supposed to take two weeks, because my paperwork kept "falling through the cracks." I waited two months for delivery of a knee brace I was supposed to have again in two weeks because they "forgot to put the order in. You just fell through the cracks." There are so many damn cracks in this VA, I keep waiting for it to just collapse.

Wait until you see him in tears because of his frustration in dealing with a system that clearly doesn't care, because they don't have to! Or because an RN closes a door in his face (literally) after he's already waited four hours, just because she wants to talk to a friend on the phone. Come to me then and tell me about condescension. Tell me about how bad you feel for those veterans trying to take money out of the system for non-service connected conditions. And tell me how quickly you would like to see the whole VA health care system tossed in the can and the care farmed out to private providers.

I hear you...I am not unfamiliar w/this situation as my dh's uncle "fell through the cracks"------he went through it as a Vietnam vet who developed a rare form of spinal cancer (presumably from his exposure to chemicals over in 'Nam). Sadly, they misdiagnosed and mistreated him and by the time he went for additional opinions and treatment, it was too late and he was dead inside one year under age 60. He would have LIVED had it been diagnosed and treated sooner but they were remiss, so he is dead. It just sucks, doesn't it? I am in NO way saying this system is not broken. But it should be fixed!

And, Kevin please, don't be so sure I am not aware of how "falling through the cracks" can be, being cared for in military hospitals systems. You presume a lot.

2 years ago, an ectopic pregnancy was misdiagnosed in me (by military doctors in a military facility), until I was 8 weeks' along and bleeding, despite constant complaint, my very clear expression of worry and my risk status to the doctors. They pretty much blew me off until I presented in ED one day and ONE doctor who had a brain in her head decided to investigate it further. Next thing I knew, I woke up in a recovery room minus a fallopian tube and the 4 cm diameter pregnancy, which ruptured the minute they cut me. I think I know a thing or two about falling through the cracks, too.

Anyhow , I digress. Privitization will save us? Maybe......but How do we get there???? Yes, it would be desireable for us all to be able to access better physicians and facilities. BUT----If this comes to pass, Just *who* will pay for it, when already the system is overburdened and out of money? If this or any administration is already discussing cutting funds or even doing away w/the VA system, what will replace it, will it be any good, and WHO WILL FUND IT? Most vets can't afford to pay more as it is. The public, I doubt, will want to fund this either. Honestly, I have seen no truly definitive answers yet in what you have said, despite all your passion and first- hand knowledge---- you have no real answers. Just "dump it". Ok....but still, I really want to know. Does ANYone have these answers?

kmchugh · Mar 30, 2005

Deb, again I apologize. It isn't my intent to upset you. But, go back through the thread. Look at the posts that have been put up about this topic.

Look first at the original report:

It seems that our President has given his blessing, no he specifically gave his approval, to cut benefits to veterans, increase the out of pocket cost some veterans pay for their meds, cut benefits/services, especially out-patient services at several facilities nationwide, and charge this new generation of veterans about $250.00 per stay in facilitles.

Nothing even remotely unusual there. Service connected veterans, as I have pointed out REPEATEDLY do not pay for their care. THose paying out of pocket are those being treated for non-service connected conditions. Even barefootlady eventually admitted that veterans probably should not receive free care for non-service connected conditions.

I guess I better not tell you that those young men and women recovering at WRAMC and any other medical facility for that matter have to pay for their meals...Even if they got their leg blown off.

Only knew part of the story. You know how BAS works. This is the norm, not some cruel punishment inflicted on the troops. Yet that poster has yet to return with an "ah ha" moment. Even though Bob explained the situation quite well.

More of that ol' compassionate conservatism, huh? Don't get me started ...

Pay for their own meals? Thier own body armor? WHO VOTED FOR THIS *** HOLE? Not me. All I can say is GIVE and prove that we can do better for vets in our own community.
2008 is 43 months away

These don't seem condescending to you? And as for my comment about "trumping" MedicalMT1, I admit that was not the best way to word it. The point was that she went fishing for me to say something that would allow her to call my service connection questionable. I posted the cause of my service connection, and suddenly, she shuts up. She tucks tail and runs. Why? Because she knew she was wrong.

Go back again to the original post, and how the essential falsehood it told is being continued: Bush cuts veterans benefits!!! What a beast!!! But if you look at the data objectively, then the expenditures are going UP, not down. From the site referenced by Begalli:

"Although the proposed 2006 federal budget calls for a 1 percent increase in the overall veterans affairs allotment -- from $67.5 billion to $68.2 billion -- some programs are recommended for cuts, in part to compensate for rising disability and pension costs."

One percent may not be a lot, but its certainly the exact opposite of a cut, wouldn't you agree? Spending is going up, but some programs, particularly some underused programs and programs more used for patients without service connected conditions (for example, nursing homes) are being cut. Fine. However, what everyone misses is the fact that if I needed nursing home care tomorrow for a service connected condition, I'd get it. And yes, I looked into that not long ago related to the potential need for some longer term care after a knee replacement. Just being prepared. That all seems perfectly correct and in keeping with the promises made to me when I joined the military.

Am I being hard, harsh even? I don't know, but it does seem to me that money for veterans is better spent on helping those with service connected conditions. One question you have never answered: Are you advocating a ten fold or more increase in VA funding to cover all health care for all veterans? Because that is the minimum of what it would take to provide free health care to all veterans. If not, you must accept that some programs, particularly programs for veterans with non-service connected conditions will have to be cut. Or are you just advocating that there should be free heath care for some veterans with non-service connected conditions? And whose to decide who those "some" are?

The point here is that the administration has been criticized based on incorrect and partial information. I've been criticized for coming to the defense of the administration. But as I've said repeatedly, there are huge problems with the VA, big enough for me to believe that the system ought to be shut down. But the problems begin with the non-appointed career functionaries of the VA, not with the current (or past) presidential administration. It is an inbred, hard wired attitude. As to your question about funding, I have to be honest, I haven't made a study of the issue. However, it seems to me that if we keep funding at current levels, and shut down all VA hospitals and lay off all VA healthcare employees, that would free up several billion dollars from facilities maintenance and upkeep, as well as salary. That in turn would give the VA more money to spend on veterans, and perhaps more indigent veterans with non-service related conditions would be able to get good quality health care. Not a huge leap of logic. The system was designed and set up to care for the literally millions of veterans from WW I and WW II. But there simply aren't that many veterans anymore. Time to size the system to meet today's needs.

I apologize again for seeming condescending, but again, it seemed (and seems) to be far more condescending to me to keep preaching about budget cuts when there is an obvious increase as reported by Begalli. It is condescending beyond description to preach in this manner to me:

We are NOT talking knees and appys here with this plan. We are talking medications that maintain life and taking care of such basic needs to those vets who require skilled nursing care. To cut benefits to veteran's LTC is the lowest of the low.

when in fact the lowest of the low seems to me to be to continue funding such programs for non-service connected vets at the expense of the growing number of veterans with service connected conditions.

Yes, this issue is personal for me. I get passionate about it. If I stepped on your toes, I apologize. But if there is one thing I recognize, it is this: The political party of the politician sitting in the oval office is irrelelvant. The problems with the VA are far more deeply entrenched than a politician, or even funding changes can fix. Bashing whoever the current administration in the name of "the veterans" isn't going to get it done.

Kevin McHugh

live4today, RN · Mar 30, 2005

Thanks Kevin & Bob for clearing things up.
Thank you both for your service to our country!

I second that thanks Kevin and Bob. Thanks for telling it like I would have told it. This is exactly how the VA Hospitals and Veteran programs work. As for the meals, I know for a fact that to be true, too. Bush isn't causing problems with the Veterans benefits. If he does, I'll be the first to scold him. :)

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Mar 30, 2005

Closing for time out and admin review.

Reopened:

Keep focus on the topic and not individual poster please.

kmchugh · May 6, 2005

Has this thread been re-opened? Because if it has, I'm still waiting for Begalli to tell me exactly what her frame of reference is.

KM

SmilingBluEyes · May 6, 2005

I second that thanks Kevin and Bob. Thanks for telling it like I would have told it. This is exactly how the VA Hospitals and Veteran programs work. As for the meals, I know for a fact that to be true, too. Bush isn't causing problems with the Veterans benefits. If he does, I'll be the first to scold him. :)

He is not helping, either, by suggesting cuts without viable alternatives!I do blame Bush for turning his back on today's and yesterday's vets in this way. It's A-ok to go to war and praise them to the Heavens while fighting, but what about when these fighting men and women come home broken in body and spirit, and now are being told the only system they have, however broken, is being downsized? How would YOU Feel?

Fix it or provide a viable alternative, don't just CUT FUNDS! That is not the way to "give back" to some who gave it all!!!! :angryfire

dbihl, BSN, RN · May 6, 2005

And this is a surprise, why??? This what he and his ilk do.

amen mercy teapot............amen! You are a psychic, that is what I thought when I read the thread title.