BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

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Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

Has anyone here ever suggested that ASNs are lesser nurses or should be cast out of nursing? I have never heard anyone even suggest that ASNs or Diploma nurses are bad nurses.

Originally posted by canoehead

Unfortunately the BSN program never actually required that I do any clinical to prove my skills so perhaps I missed that part. I can write a mean paper though.:D

Pardon? No required clinical? I doubt that.

Originally posted by sbic56

Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

NO WAY!!!

Better smarter nurses give better safer care! Book smart doesn't equal common sense. I know some PhD's. that are dumber than dirt. :confused:

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by fergus51

Has anyone here ever suggested that ASNs are lesser nurses or should be cast out of nursing? I have never heard anyone even suggest that ASNs or Diploma nurses are bad nurses.

ah, fergus that is the problem with this thread. It got away from the ORIGINAL subject...which would be:

"BSN's deliver SAFER care than ADN's".... just that statement was inflammatory to some. and....than throw in some arrogant statements by some posters saying their educations are "unique" and make them "more critical thinkers" as BSN nurses and well, there ya go!!!!!

Soooo....that is what the assumption is, (according to this, what I think is a bogus study)---- so many take it to mean, ADN's should NOT be rendering bedside care, cause BSN's do it more safely. That is how this got started.

Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes

Oh! Hey Smiley beautiful baby, but there was just something about the barfing pumpkin :rolleyes:

Specializes in critical care, ER,ICU, CVSURG, CCU.

I have to totally disagree. In my experience, way too many of the BSN prepared nurses either have entirely too much book learning and not enough "in the trenches" training, or they go right into management jobs and when called upon to work on the floor, they are lost. I'm not making a blanket statement, please. But I take offense at the inference that a BSN prepared nurse is safer than I am. I'm a damn good nurse, thank you. I graduated from a top notch ADN program--extremely demanding. I entered employment with several BSN and Diploma prepared nurses. Many of them didn't know how to handle a tube feeding, assess lung sounds or insert a Foley catheter properly. Yes, I am pursuing my BSN but not because I feel I would be a "safer" nurse with it. I live and work in a small town at a community hospital with many, many RN's who came out of the same ADN program I did. I would trust my life with almost any of them. And by the way, if we, the ADN's are so "unsafe", why aren't our employers picking up the tab for us to get our BSNs?

Specializes in ICU.

let me say up front that the same paper that has had everyone here arguing about who is better

got us a pay rise!!!!

okay - so we are different back in 1989 the last state in australia swapped from hospital training to university training - so no more adn's - our minimum entry was bsn. not that the hospital training ever was recognised - officially - as adn equivalent. it still is today called a "certificate". for a while there was a push to get existing "hospital certificate" rn's to do a "bridging" course for a bsn but that has fallen by the wayside as now it is accepted that hospital training + years in industry = bsn. even nurses that only ever had hospital training can, if they want go on to post grad certificates and diplomas. by law admin cannot differentiate at interview between a nurse with a higher degree and one who has extensive experience if they both do well at interview.

this had the effect though of demotivating nurses to pursue higher degrees but now, thanks to this report and others like it, we are now being paid more for our extra degrees and certs.

so what is the moral of my story????

you get more if you work together than if you pull each other apart.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by SallyRN

. And by the way, if we, the ADN's are so "unsafe", why aren't our employers picking up the tab for us to get our BSNs?

yes, very good point. another reason I think this story is just that

a story.

Originally posted by smkoepke

What i am saying is that there needs to be a clear cut and defined educational preparation for an RN. The same way that there is a clear cut preparation for most other professions. you don't see doctors, pts, lawyers, engineers, architects etc... (in this country) that skipped 1 or more years of schooling and still some out as MD's or PT's etc.. they have a standard degree that all must earn in order to practice or sit for licensing exams.

And I am still saying: WHY? WHY does a "clear cut and defined educational preparation for an RN" MATTER?

And to WHOM does it matter? Not to me. Not to any other nurses I know. A previous poster stated that we NEED to care about this issue, and there are nurses who are pssionate in their caring for it--WHERE? WHO ARE THESE NURSES?

I don't know ANY, and I don't buy into the argument that perhaps I should care, because (if you believe the hype) the profession of nursing is quicky going to hell in a handbasket, and I will one day be one of the elderly people that is being taken care of by unlicensed and incompetent assistive personnel, (or incompetent and ill-prepared nurses) all because I didn't care when I "should" have cared--"passionately--" about this "issue."

This is the question no one seems to be answering--they are just so stubborn about insisting that, well, somehow it DOES matter--it MUST matter--DOESN'T it? It's all rhetoric--people have heard it so much that they accept it as gospel. Here's a thought--WHAT IF NONE OF IT IS TRUE?

And I don't agree that it DOES matter.. I think that this is media hype and brainwashing, and who knows how it even got started, it has been going on so long? What difference does it make how one got from point A to Point B to deliver nursing care?

If everybody follows a "standard" or "clear cut" educational pattern, then every BSN pogram will churn out the same genre of nurse--why not just train robots? Peoples' life experiences and their career paths (and other educational experiences) BEFORE nursing school make them the nurses they are, and the PEOPLE they are.

Oh, and continuing ed plays a big part--I do tons of continuing ed, for my own benefit--but how many RNs have gotten that BSN and never taken another CE course--EVER-- because their state doesn not require it?

How many of you posting here are among that number?

How many BSNs posting here have never started an IV--I ran into an awful lot of "experienced" BSN nurses--both practicing floor nurses and nurse managers-- who, when I attempted to teach them various IV products, sniffed, "I don't start IVs. I call the house supervisor" (--or anesthesia--or the IV team.)

How many don't know ACLS--because it isn't required? THESE are the situations that concern me--not how people arrived into practicing entry level nursing, but how much (or how little) they did to advance PAST their entry level nursing skills.

I am all for people skipping one or more years of school to get form point A to Point B if they are smart enough (i.e. to challenge boards--why shouldn't they?) I skipped the entire first year of clinicals (fundamentals, med-surg, peds, labor and delivery) because I had HAD that clinical experience in the Navy, challenged the nursing school placement test and was awarded advanced placement into the nursing program. Many ex-military corpsmen have done the same.

Guess I am really out of the loop,since I don't know know--nor have I even encountered even briefly--any of this huge crowd of nurses and policymakers who are so "passionate" about this "issue." I reserve my "passion" for other things.

My neighbor, a long time med-surg nurse, was told she would have to go back and get a BSN if she wanted to cross train in L&D and/or oncology.

She said, the he** with it, and is now happily delivering babies in Africa, (after being taught by the village, non-nurse midwife) saving the lives of orphans with chronic diarrhea, malnutrition and typhoid, teaching birth control and breast exams and whatever else is needed--she doesn't chart or answer to anyone--and she is rewarded daily by orphans who trek miles to see "madame" who might give them a banana, a piece of candy, a kiss or a hug or a bandaid--and they in return kiss her hand and say"God bless you, Madame." If the hospitals aren't careful too many bright people considering nursing will also say the he** with it and do something else to showcase their skills, talents education and passion. I guess we all know who loses in this situation.

Specializes in O.R., ED, M/S.

stevierae, I couldn't have said it any better. The only, ONLY thing I am pasionate about is my wife! Well my dogs also, but she knows that. Good, good post! Mike

She said, the he** with it, and is now happily delivering babies in Africa, (after being taught by the village, non-nurse midwife) saving the lives of orphans with chronic diarrhea, malnutrition and typhoid, teaching birth control and breast exams and whatever else is needed--she doesn't chart or answer to anyone--and she is rewarded daily by orphans who trek miles to see "madame" who might give them a banana, a piece of candy, a kiss or a hug or a bandaid--and they in return kiss her hand and say"God bless you, Madame." If the hospitals aren't careful too many bright people considering nursing will also say the he** with it and do something else to showcase their skills, talents education and passion. I guess we all know who loses in this situation

What a neat lady! And truly a professional nurse!

I get what you're saying Deb. I guess I can listen to the study without being offended or angry. I find there are MANY more negative comments about BSN nurses than any other group. I swear, I hear so much about how they aren't good at skills, have no common sense, don't get enough clinical, think they're going straight into management, etc. Maybe that's why one study looking at mortality rates and educational preparation of nurses doesn't get me going.

Stevie, a clear cut and defined educational preparation IS required for nurses already. It is important because we are a profession with a lot of responsibilities. I am sure you are not in favor of letting anyone write the NCLEX of they haven't taken any nursing courses. The only question is what should that educational preparation be? ASN or Diploma or BSN?

Also, this may be a little off topic, but seeing a crappy BSN nurse doesn't mean that BSN programs are bad, and should not be the level new nurses are required to obtain. At least, not anymore than seeing a bad ASN nurse is proof that the ASN should not be the standard.

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