Is it just me...or have you also noticed a significant drop in the number of applicants applying for these nursing schools, especially at the BSN levels...but including ADN's and LPN's?!
I ask this question because, I remember years ago on this very site, pre-nursing applicants would attend information meetings, and come back and post some astronomical numbers of applicants who had filed. Along with that, they would post some ridiculous numbers of years you had to sit on a wait-list pool of applicants. Numbers would be like, 600 to 1,580 potential applicants, but taking only 55-100, somewhere in that neighborhood...with a waiting list of 3-5 years away. Now you hear 200-300 applicants applied, maybe 58 taking... and sometimes no wait-list at all...maybe a roll over to the next application year's date!
However, recently you hear someone on this site (threads) being so sad on their school's threads, because they were put on a wait-list...and approximately three weeks later they are back on this site...yelling, Wow Yep Yay...I got in, they accepted me off the wait- list. Is applicants just getting smarter, and just applying at as many schools as possible...thereby decreasing that wait-list...and decreasing the numbers?
Do you think the demand is decreasing, so much so, because there has been so many nurses that have graduated within the period of 2002-2011, that the market has been so over saturated, and not been able to accommodate that much of an increase in numbers of applicants in our field?
Do you think the school are purposely attempting to make the requirements so competitive that it makes it easier to persuade the applicants to go elsewhere, thereby, discouraging and decreasing the numbers of applicants to apply. If this is so...I agree...we want the best of the best working on us...that is, if that is the schools true and actual reasoning. And...I would love that title of being 'A Great Nurse'.
I say this only because so many nurse instructors and educators on these threads, have indicated quite clearly, that most(some often) 4.0 GPA's nurses have great memory skills, but can not implement them to critical thinking modes. Which don't necessarily make them the best nurses. I guess they would know..they are the ones who are the educators who oversee their training.
What do you think is happening to the nursing field applicants numbers...or is it just the bottom line...Money, and the increase COST to attend nursing schools?
First of all; just because college/universities are doubling their programs, trying to hire more professors and having to turn away students due to lack of professors does NOT mean those nurses are needed! These are only vaguely related subjects. Colleges fill demand; demand for nursing school seats, not necessarily for more nurses. Sometimes colleges respond to such demand by expanding programs but it's not the only pressure colleges respond to. With the depressed economy of the past few years, everyone thought they could make a living going to nursing school and the demand went exponential. My interpretation of the drop in applicants is a combination the improvement of the economy combined with prospective students realizing this degree is not a guaranteed great job.
I also saw an article talking about the low acceptance rates to elite universities. Part of the issue was attributed to the greatly rising number of applicants and the fact that with many more standardized application programs, students were routinely shooting off applications to a couple dozen schools and of course only signing on with one university.
I've been a nurse for a while now and we didn't have fancy tools like this back in my day (I would be from the microfiche era). Recently I've been applying to graduate nursing programs and discovered the Nursing CAS, a centralized nursing school application one can use to apply to dozens of nursing schools apparently around the nation!
Also, I'm pretty sure I know why there continues to be a huge nursing faculty shortage. I'm well aware that should I decide to teach with my possible new degree, I can count on a substantial cut in pay from what I make as a NICU nurse in a nights/weekend plan position. But, there's a substantial non-monetary value in having a normal schedule, including the ability to join the world on weekends and holidays!
I dislike when people say "there is no nursing shortage" because that is not true in some areas, such as the area I am in. According to the U.S Bureau of Labor Statistics, their site says nursing has a 19% job growth outlook through 2020, while ARNPs have a 38 percent projected growth. While hospitals in some areas may be tightening their belts now, the economy is not going to be like this forever, everything is cyclical. I've discussed the nursing shortage with a few very experienced doctors who say that the nursing shortage is going to turn into a nursing shortage crisis in the coming 10 and 20 years because of all the baby boomers who will inevitably need medical care. If any of the 18 year olds applying for nursing school are anything like I was when I was 18, which Im sure all of them are, they are going to go to school for whatever they want to go to school for and are not looking too far into the future in regard to, "is nursing school a good investment?", " am I going to get a good return on my investment?" like many of the older adults on this site seem to always be discussing. So let them go to nursing school and let them compete for jobs, that will just create a stronger, more educated foundation of nurses.
First of all; just because college/universities are doubling their programs, trying to hire more professors and having to turn away students due to lack of professors does NOT mean those nurses are needed! These are only vaguely related subjects. Colleges fill demand; demand for nursing school seats, not necessarily for more nurses. Sometimes colleges respond to such demand by expanding programs but it's not the only pressure colleges respond to. With the depressed economy of the past few years, everyone thought they could make a living going to nursing school and the demand went exponential. My interpretation of the drop in applicants is a combination the improvement of the economy combined with prospective students realizing this degree is not a guaranteed great job.
I also saw an article talking about the low acceptance rates to elite universities. Part of the issue was attributed to the greatly rising number of applicants and the fact that with many more standardized application programs, students were routinely shooting off applications to a couple dozen schools and of course only signing on with one university.
I've been a nurse for a while now and we didn't have fancy tools like this back in my day (I would be from the microfiche era). Recently I've been applying to graduate nursing programs and discovered the Nursing CAS, a centralized nursing school application one can use to apply to dozens of nursing schools apparently around the nation!
Also, I'm pretty sure I know why there continues to be a huge nursing faculty shortage. I'm well aware that should I decide to teach with my possible new degree, I can count on a substantial cut in pay from what I make as a NICU nurse in a nights/weekend plan position. But, there's a substantial non-monetary value in having a normal schedule, including the ability to join the world on weekends and holidays!
TiffyRn you have proven the power of communication, and the facts to back it up with. It sounds like you are going to be a great MSN instructor, and you summed it up eloquently why the benefits are wagered on ones on self needs, when it come to instructors shortage, and not just the job market and pay. Pursue your dream...because you just helped me pursue mine...I am going to continue on and go for my MSN also...I have always wanted to teach. You are inspirational...Thank you.
I was particularly interested in these quotes below from the article, which, to me, solidifies my post in several ways...and begs the question that I asked originally... "Are nursing schools saturated, less applying?" This post also appear to be a popular one by the number of responses I am receiving, and the passion in which they are answering....
“One of the ways that colleges are measured is by the number of applicants and their admit rate, and some colleges do things simply to increase their applicant pool and manipulate those numbers,” said Christoph Guttentag, the dean of undergraduate admission at Duke.
"Enrollment at American colleges is sliding, but competition for spots at top universities is more cutthroat and anxiety-inducing than ever. In the just-completed admissions season, Stanford University accepted only 5 percent of applicants, a new low among the most prestigious schools, with the odds nearly as bad at its elite rivals."
Which beg the next question to you. Is the manipulation of numbers of applicants of students...deceitful to the people who are applying? Should those schools have an obligation to
inform; notify; or put into question, why the nursing schools are over saturated and no shortage of nurses?
Or?!
Is this one of those "white collar crimes" that we tongue and cheek about, and say, everyone should fin for themselves? Do the school have a moral responsibility to inform...or is it just the business of these colleges...bottom line!
Your post TiffyRn has structed me the most, because it was profound in the concept, where you said..."My interpretation of the drop in applicants is a combination the improvement of the economy combined with prospective students realizing this degree is not a guaranteed great job."
Also, thanks for bringing news and facts to this post site and the nursing community...
..."Recently I've been applying to graduate nursing programs and discovered the Nursing CAS, a centralized nursing school application one can use to apply to dozens of nursing schools apparently around the nation!"
..."Part of the issue was attributed to the greatly rising number of applicants and the fact that with many more standardized application programs, students were routinely shooting off applications to a couple dozen schools and of course only signing on with one university."
Boy...this is the first time I enjoyed quoting a whole post...no matter what the outcome of the answer or responses!
Thanks TiffyRn. And..I caught that statement..."I've been a nurse for a while now and we didn't have fancy tools like this back in my day (I would be from the microfiche era)." I am with you on that statement...you got that right! (smile)
I dislike when people say "there is no nursing shortage" because that is not true in some areas, such as the area I am in.
..."According to the U.S Bureau of Labor Statistics, their site says nursing has a 19% job growth outlook through 2020, while ARNPs have a 38 percent projected growth."
...."I've discussed the nursing shortage with a few very experienced doctors who say that the nursing shortage is going to turn into a nursing shortage crisis in the coming 10 and 20 years because of all the baby boomers who will inevitably need medical care."
..."If any of the 18 year olds applying...they are going to go to school for whatever they want to go to school for and are not looking too far into the future in regard to, "is nursing school a good investment?", " am I going to get a good return on my investment?"
..."like many of the older adults on this site seem to always be discussing."
..."So let them go to nursing school and let them compete for jobs, that will just create a stronger, more educated foundation of nurses.
iluvgusgus your points is well taken, and I respect your view. This thread is to provoke thought and opinions, not anxiety(..."I dislike when people say "there is no nursing shortage" because that is not true in some areas, such as the area I am in.) . This thread also is presented to 'All Areas", not to only a single area...at the moment.
You made a very important point when you stated..."I've discussed the nursing shortage with a few very experienced doctors who say that the nursing shortage is going to turn into a nursing shortage crisis in the coming 10 and 20 years because of all the baby boomers who will inevitably need medical care."
So am I understanding you correctly...that the nursing schools should continue to over saturate the schools today with potential hopeful, because in the future 10 to 20 years down the line, we are going to need those graduates...who can not get a job presently today and just sit around for 10 to 20 years, because there is no nursing shortage...in certain areas?
How does this address the question on..."Are nursing schools saturated, less applying?
A community college near me only had 15 applicants for their bridge program, I assume they accepted everyone.
Another community college accepted anyone into their program (LVN, RN, bridge) once they passed the TEAS test. I don't know if they are still doing it.
People are probably realizing it's not as easy & guaranteed as they thought.
Hi OrganizedChaos thanks for you comments and information schools acceptance on certain programs.
Let me ask you a question. What is you views on the bridge programs? Is it worth it to go through the bridge program after the ADN or should one have optic for the BSN, in the first place and saved that double cost (for both ADN and the BSN)?
Every Cal State University I applied to for BSN had over 600 applicants. The Long Beach director told me that this was the among the HIGHEST amount of applicants they have received, and this was the HIGHEST cutoff score they ever had.
So, no. I have noticed the exact opposite from what you have mentioned.
I say this only because so many nurse instructors and educators on these threads, have indicated quite clearly, that most(some often) 4.0 GPA's nurses have great memory skills, but can not implement them to critical thinking modes. Which don't necessarily make them the best nurses. I guess they would know..they are the ones who are the educators who oversee their training.
I think this is a rather narrow-minded critique. I have noticed quite the opposite. I am a college tutor (anatomy, physiology, chemistry, biology, math) , an EMT for 2 years, and a nursing student beginning September (CSULA BSN).
In my experience. 4.0 students show less struggle to understand key concepts. And it is understanding and critical thinking is what makes "memorizing" easier. One can remember quite easily when he or she can, in turn, explain subjects.
It seems to be those whom earn B's and below that seem to have more struggle with "Memorizing" and understanding key concepts, and displaying critical thinking patterns.
Regardless, being a good nurse requires incredible ability to understand, memorize, critically think, AND be an empathetic and patient person; the latter, of which you totally failed to mention, is one of the most important factors.
Personally, If there was no difference of personality/empathy/demeanor between two nurses, I would take a 4.0 student over a lower scoring student without question.
Every Cal State University I applied to for BSN had over 600 applicants. The Long Beach director told me that this was the among the HIGHEST amount of applicants they have received, and this was the HIGHEST cutoff score they ever had.
So, no. I have noticed the exact opposite from what you have mentioned.
Hi J Friday, thanks for your input about Cal State University. We appreciate updated information.
Have you read ahimsa_L's thread on this post. She also attached an article.
I think this is a rather narrow-minded critique. I have noticed quite the opposite. I am a college tutor (anatomy, physiology, chemistry, biology, math) , an EMT for 2 years, and a nursing student beginning September (CSULA BSN).
In my experience. 4.0 students show less struggle to understand key concepts. And it is understanding and critical thinking is what makes "memorizing" easier. One can remember quite easily when he or she can, in turn, explain subjects.
It seems to be those whom earn B's and below that seem to have more struggle with "Memorizing" and understanding key concepts, and displaying critical thinking patterns.
Regardless, being a good nurse requires incredible ability to understand, memorize, critically think, AND be an empathetic and patient person; the latter, of which you totally failed to mention, is one of the most important factors.
Personally, If there was no difference of personality/empathy/demeanor between two nurses, I would take a 4.0 student over a lower scoring student without question.
J Friday I agree with you 100%. Notice I said the instructors on this site said...not that I agreed with them all!
Everyone has a right to their opinions on these sites, and because those instructors are on the fore front with those nursing students, one has to respect their opinions...how ever flawed it might seem to others.
I did not which to take this personal...but I feel that I am one of those 4.0 GPA persons they are talking about...but my method is to prove them wrong. However, I must add in their defense, I don't believe they were implying all of the 4.0 GPA persons.
I have noticed quite the opposite. I am a college tutor (anatomy, physiology, chemistry, biology, math) , an EMT for 2 years, and a nursing student beginning September (CSULA BSN).
J Friday..Congrats on your acceptance to nursing school at CSULA for your BSN!!!
Our school makes us go through an information session before applying. It lets us know how rigorous the program is and tries to get you to question whether you think nursing is right for you. It doesn't out and out discourage you but it tries to make you think before applying and wasting money.
..."I live in an old GM town right outside of Indianapolis. The people here are all pretty much retired and now aging. Retirement homes are popping up everywhere and they need nurses.
..."I honestly do not worry about getting a job when I get out of school. I know everyone on here says there is no nursing shortage but in some areas, they are in demand. Even the south side of Indy is expanding at a rapid pace. It really just depends on where you live.
Hi Heathermaizey...I think your schools seems more for informing the student...ahead of the game. And...not just getting information out...as most of these information meeting are being held, recently.
...."Our school makes us go through an information session before applying. It lets us know how rigorous the program is and tries to get you to question whether you think nursing is right for you."
OP, I can only speak for Northern California, of course, but all public nursing schools (community college and state colleges) *require* at least a 3.2 GPA to even be considered for the program. Private schools like Samuel Merritt or National University accept down to a 2.9 GPA, but you are paying through the nose for tuition. Example: community college programs estimate their nursing schools will cost approx. $6,000 for the full 2 years (tests, insurances, books, tuition, uniforms, etc included). State colleges (CSU Sacramento) are approx. $3,500 per semester + books + uniforms + insurances, etc. so your total is about $25K-$30K for the TWO year BSN program (other CSUs can be 3 years). Private colleges are charging WELL over $60,000 for their BSN programs. The way I see it is that professors at private colleges will tell you what you want to hear because they want to tuition flowing through the door.
I know the professors at the colleges I attend (community college and CSU) all don't say there is a nursing shortage anymore. They say, "you can find a job after you graduate and pass NCLEX, but you can't be picky." As far as the GPA requirements, I believe it will be dwindling for ADN programs as more and more people realize you 'waste' a year if you get your ADN with the intention of doing BSN right after. I know many hospitals in NorCal will be requiring RNs to bridge to BSNs by 2020, so the BSN bridge programs will probably be next to become impacted. Most hospitals like UC Davis and Kaiser won't even look at you if you don't have your BSN. Schools want the best of the best students (high GPAs, high TEAS, volunteer hours) because they want to maintain good relationships with the hospitals they perform clinicals in. It also tells the school that you take your education seriously and you will do whatever it takes (no sleep, study 24/7, go to tutoring) to get what you need to know. It's true... some 4.0 students aren't cut out for applying what they know in a real world healthcare setting. But that is such a small percentage of students. Personally, I think professors need to say those types of things to keep morale up in the students that are there, keeping the competition up, and keeping them employed.
Hi LeapBaby, wow that's some great information! One has to be really armed with information in order to attend any nursing school today. You have made some great points in regards to cost factors; bridge programs for ADN to BSN; instructors keeping competitive; and GPA's along with the TEAS.
All these factors are very important and effects the number of applicants applying to the nursing programs.
Do you think the cost is a big factor in the future applicants numbers in those applying for nursing? Or? Do you think nursing students are willing to pay any amount to get into a nursing school...as long as they are accepted?
In my state, Michigan, our Accelerated Second Degree BSN programs do not require the TEAS, or any type other testing. Although, there are 10 to 13 pre-reqs and an interview process required, with high GPA's...3.8 to 4.0. However, some of the colleges have started eliminating the interviews. For instance, Wayne State University has eliminated both the interview and the volunteer BSN nurse shadowing processes.
Do you think that the High GPA's and the TEAS is going to change the number of applicants applying...because those tests are more gear toward critical thinking...which is known to eliminate a lot of potential nursing applicants? Is the TEAS a good or bad evaluation?
Regarding the Bridge programs, if BSN is going to be required by 2020, why do these nursing schools keep saturating the nursing schools with so many ADN and LPN students...all over, in both community colleges and 4 yrs degree programs?
Older nurses on this site knows that they have been attempting to eliminate the LPN's for over 25 years, and also, the ADN have been 'warned' to get their BSN for over the past 10 to 15 years, if not, their licenses will not be marketable.
TiffyRN, BSN, PhD
2,316 Posts
First of all; just because college/universities are doubling their programs, trying to hire more professors and having to turn away students due to lack of professors does NOT mean those nurses are needed! These are only vaguely related subjects. Colleges fill demand; demand for nursing school seats, not necessarily for more nurses. Sometimes colleges respond to such demand by expanding programs but it's not the only pressure colleges respond to. With the depressed economy of the past few years, everyone thought they could make a living going to nursing school and the demand went exponential. My interpretation of the drop in applicants is a combination the improvement of the economy combined with prospective students realizing this degree is not a guaranteed great job.
I also saw an article talking about the low acceptance rates to elite universities. Part of the issue was attributed to the greatly rising number of applicants and the fact that with many more standardized application programs, students were routinely shooting off applications to a couple dozen schools and of course only signing on with one university.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/led-by-stanfords-5-top-colleges-acceptance-rates-hit-new-lows.html?_r=0
I've been a nurse for a while now and we didn't have fancy tools like this back in my day (I would be from the microfiche era). Recently I've been applying to graduate nursing programs and discovered the Nursing CAS, a centralized nursing school application one can use to apply to dozens of nursing schools apparently around the nation!
Also, I'm pretty sure I know why there continues to be a huge nursing faculty shortage. I'm well aware that should I decide to teach with my possible new degree, I can count on a substantial cut in pay from what I make as a NICU nurse in a nights/weekend plan position. But, there's a substantial non-monetary value in having a normal schedule, including the ability to join the world on weekends and holidays!