Are managers allowed to give ultimatums?

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TONIGHT WE HAD A MANDATORY MEETING. EVERYBODY WAS IN ATTENDANCE AND MY MANAGER TOLD US THAT SHE MADE UP A 100 QUESTION TEST THAT WE HAVE TO PASS WITH MISSING 10 OR LESS. IF WE MISS MORE THAN 10 WE ARE TERMINATED?????? IS THAT EVEN LEGAL? SHE HAD PEOPLE IN AN UPROAR! SHOULD I JUST GO ALONG WITH IT AND TAKE THIS TEST? OR SAY SOMETHING TO SOMEBODY AT HR??? :confused:

LIKE I SAID, I DO BELIEVE I WILL HAVE NO ISSUES PASSING, I AM JUST WORRIED FOR ALL OF THE GREAT CO WORKERS THAT BUST THERE BUT EVERYDAY WITH US. THEY ARE JUST A LITTLE NEWER AND ME BEING THERE A COUPLES YEARS NOW KNOWS ALOT MORE. I COULD UNDERSTAND A TEST AND IF ONE FAILS, THEN THEY SHOULD MAYBE HAVE TO DO SOME EXTRA TRAINING OR SOMETHING, BUT SHE IS INSANE TO THREATEN TERMINATION UPON PEOPLE ESPECIALLY SINCE EVERYBODY HAS FAMILIES TO SUPPORT AND BILLS TO PAY. I THINK SHE IS BEING UNETHICAL!!! I WILL MAKE SURE TO CALL HR IN THE MORNING TO TALK TO THEM.....BUT I HAVE HEARD OUR MANAGER HAS HR WRAPPED AROUND HER FINGER FROM COMPLAINTS ABOUT HER IN THE PAST...... :banghead:

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Depends on where you live. I live in Indiana. There are no laws to protect your employment here. You can go in one day and they can look at you and say they don't like the way you combed your eyebrow and let you go and you have not recourse!! Of course, most facilities set their own boundaries and regulations so this doesn't happen.

In a unionized state, things would be different.

I guess, what I am saying is it is better to just go ahead an jump through the hoops. If you pass no problem. If you don't, then appeal it.

Never start a ripple in the water if you are not prepared to handle the tidal wave that it might cause!!

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Specializes in Critical Care, Education.

YIKES - this situation is wrong on sooooo many different levels, but I would like to address the most important one.

There are Federal employment laws that are applicable in this case - the presence or absence of a union or any state law has no bearing because they can never supercede Federal law. ANY 'test' of competence that is used as a basis for employment actions (hire, fire, promote, etc) must be a reliable and valid instrument that is clearly linked to a bona fide occupational qualification (BOQ). The reliability & validity of the instrument (test) must be determined by using some very sophisticated statistical methods. If the instrument is not reliable and valid, the employment decisions would be considered 'arbitrary' and not defensible by the employing organization.

Any qualified workplace educator should know this information because it is so fundamental, but I would assume that the HR folks should be familiar with these requirements also. Using homegrown 'tests' without HR approval is a quick way to incur liability for any organization. It also sounds like the organization in question does not do a very good job of orienting managers, if they do are unaware of employment laws.

I would advise the OP to check on who developed the 'test' that is being used. If it is a standardized assessment developed by a credible organization (e.g., NLN) AND clearly connected to the BOQ for the job, then it may be OK to use as an indicator of job competence. If not - go talk to HR about it ASAP.

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Who is going to work your unit when everyone is fired? Her? You should all purposely fail.

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Specializes in Army Medic.

If it's really so large of an issue within your unit, I would just get everyone together and make an agreement to sit down and wait for the day to end without performing the test.

That's **** poor, and lazy management.

I could drag on about how many problems there are with what your manager is doing, but suffice to say you should take this to HR - regardless of if you think she's got them wrapped around her finger. Depending on where you live it's flat out illegal, and no matter what state you're in there are a slew of other factors that is going to get your hospital sued by every single nurse that loses their job over there.

Unless you can find somewhere in your contract where this was stated to be standard practice.

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I guess I need to know the background. Why is she doing this? Is this just out of the blue or have you maybe seen it coming?

If you're sure you can pass, do so. You all should maybe find this a good time to get together and study, help each other.

Did she give you a study guide? I see the one question you wrote but wonder how much of a study guide she is providing. Or is this over material in your Policy and Procedure Manual? Or what?

If you can pass it, just worry about you and don't get all upset about the other staff. Sounds selfish but is really realistic. Probably some people will either quit before the test.

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Specializes in LTC, Acute Care.
Depends on where you live. I live in Indiana. There are no laws to protect your employment here. You can go in one day and they can look at you and say they don't like the way you combed your eyebrow and let you go and you have not recourse!! Of course, most facilities set their own boundaries and regulations so this doesn't happen.

In a unionized state, things would be different.

I guess, what I am saying is it is better to just go ahead an jump through the hoops. If you pass no problem. If you don't, then appeal it.

Never start a ripple in the water if you are not prepared to handle the tidal wave that it might cause!!

In my state, which is a right-to-work state, you can indeed be fired for your eyebrow being out of place, but if you can demonstrate that is why you were terminated or some other reason that doesn't deserve termination (and being able to demonstrate it by way of keeping documentation and records), you can most definitely draw unemployment. I don't know about the OP's state, though.

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You are working in a toxic, hostile, dysfunctional environment. Your manager is a jerk and she gets away with it because she can.

If it were me, I would deliberately flunk the test, or outright refuse to take it. Then I would refuse to quit. I would insist on being fired, and I would have security escort me out so there is a witness. That way you will get unemployment while you look for another job. And you will get another job - I know someone who got fired from FIVE consecutive nursing homes and still got hired as a manager at another hospital.

I wish you all the best. Our jobs are hard enough without dealing with idiots like that.

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Specializes in Gerontology, nursing education.
YIKES - this situation is wrong on sooooo many different levels, but I would like to address the most important one.

There are Federal employment laws that are applicable in this case - the presence or absence of a union or any state law has no bearing because they can never supercede Federal law. ANY 'test' of competence that is used as a basis for employment actions (hire, fire, promote, etc) must be a reliable and valid instrument that is clearly linked to a bona fide occupational qualification (BOQ). The reliability & validity of the instrument (test) must be determined by using some very sophisticated statistical methods. If the instrument is not reliable and valid, the employment decisions would be considered 'arbitrary' and not defensible by the employing organization.

Any qualified workplace educator should know this information because it is so fundamental, but I would assume that the HR folks should be familiar with these requirements also. Using homegrown 'tests' without HR approval is a quick way to incur liability for any organization. It also sounds like the organization in question does not do a very good job of orienting managers, if they do are unaware of employment laws.

I would advise the OP to check on who developed the 'test' that is being used. If it is a standardized assessment developed by a credible organization (e.g., NLN) AND clearly connected to the BOQ for the job, then it may be OK to use as an indicator of job competence. If not - go talk to HR about it ASAP.

Excellent post, HouTx! I get the feeling, though, from the original post, that this is a test the nurse manager has devised herself. I hope I am wrong and that you are right---that it is something standardized and not "homegrown".

You are also right in that the manager and HR could be setting themselves up for some legal trouble with this test. I am sorry to say that, while it should be standard practice for HR to be familiar with employment law, some folks are quite ignorant. If, as the OP has said, HR takes the nurse manager's side, they could choose to ignore employment law and hope that none of the nurses catch on.

Again, it would make far more sense if this was a test used in conjunction with some sort of educational materials presented to the staff and that they would be required to take and pass the test after completing those materials. Sometimes testing can be a good way for a learner to demonstrate what he/she has learned and sometimes it turns into a power issue with the person doing the testing having power over the person being tested. To me, the OP's situation sounds like the latter.

BTW, to the OP, I hope you don't think I'm being nitpicky here but in the future, please don't use all caps in your posts. All caps make it seem that you are shouting and, while you certainly have a right to shout about this situation, all caps might turn off other folks on this forum who would otherwise like to address your situation. Thanks.

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Yes my manager was indeed the one to make up the test. She said she wants everybody to be well rounded because some of us are very profficient in all the softwares and systems we use. Others, not so much. It is only in our unit. She said in the meeting that if she hears any of us talking about it outside negativly there will be severe consequenses. The funny part was that last night 5 brand new job postings from our unit went up on the website when in my entire time working there she has never put up more than 1 at a time.!!!!!!!!!!!

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Specializes in Gerontology, nursing education.

Oh my goodness----

This is management by intimidation at its worst. I understand the manager wanting to make sure the nurses are all proficient but there are better ways to do this. The scariest part, to me anyway, is that the manager is making up this test herself. Does she have any experience whatsoever in creating and administering tests? There are nurse educators who don't know how to write test questions so what makes this manager think she's able to do so?

Just the stress could be enough to make people nervous enough to fail! One can only miss FIVE questions in order to pass, ten for a retake and anything more than ten, termination? Not even transfer, just termination?

Can you transfer out of there? I mean, even if you pass it's going to be difficult to work there because you will likely be short-staffed for quite a while.

And if she's threatening dire consequences to anyone who even talks about this test negatively to someone else, she clearly does not have the ability to manage other people and is trying to intimidate you all to toe the line.

And thanks re: the caps. :)

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Specializes in Army Medic.

I would document the fact that 5 job listings have gone up directly after stating that she'll be issuing these tests.

It sounds to me like she doesn't like some of the employee's and wants to get rid of them one way or another.

Who's to say she won't give the test and be biased towards a handful of nurses who fail, but ignore others who fail based on personal preference?

I have never heard of a single medical test in my life that requires some one to get a 95% in order to pass. In fact there is no such thing in the testing world period.

So many alarms coming up here. Did you contact HR?

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