Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally?

Nurses General Nursing

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I have an old friend from years ago who I now keep in touch with on Facebook. Her posts are fascinating in the amazing variety of conspiracy theories, some outrageous, some maybe partially true. She's a big believer that cannabis oil will cure just about anything and that information of course is being suppressed by the drug companies and the government.

She blames many, if not all, health problems on vaccines. She also subscribes to some disturbing anti-Semitic ideologies, blaming the network of high powered Jews, led by the evil Rothschild family.

I swear, the internet has turned slightly eccentric people into extremists. 30 years ago this woman was into macrobiotics, native Americans, and New Age philosophies.

Specializes in Anesthesia.

The title of the thread is "Are anti-vaccine people conspiracy theorists generally". It's not how to talk to patients or don't hurt my feelings because I'm am a nurse and don't believe in the science behind vaccines.

Rarely is HCP going to talk to their professional colleagues the way the do their patients and I highly doubt any Nurse on here talks to patients in a manner that we post, so for the benefit of this thread can everyone quit acting like we are talking to patients on here.

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Specializes in CVICU, MICU, Burn ICU.

Willful ignorance, which is what we see from the majority of anti-vaxxers posting here, is a behavior like any other and has consequences. One of those consequences is exasperation when the presentation of real epidemiological facts is met for the umpteenth time with, "But autism! GBS! Thimerisol! Mercury!" What's next - blaming the flu on miasmas from the local swamp?

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I know I said I left this thread. Morbid curiosity brings me back, I guess. But please respond to the point I made several times here, but continues to be ignored..... who are the anti-vaxers in this thread? I count one (1). Kooky, I think, is the only anti-vaxer in this thread.

All kinds of accusations about "nurses" here in this thread -- PLURAL -- being anti-science, illogical and unfit for practice --- and yet I count only one person who voiced anti-vax sentiments. I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

So it would seem like there is great broad strokes being used to paint over ANYONE who does not strictly conform to the "I-am-provaccine-and-angry-about-it" mantra. I have been shown the door in this thread multiple times for simply saying something to the effect of 'being right isn't good enough, you gotta be nice about it, too' --- and apparently any kind of statement like that earns me and any other the "anti-vax" label?

This is an important point, because over and over in this thread we have been cautioned about this HUGE threat to scientific intellectualism even within our own profession based on the comments of ONE person. I guess technically that ONE person constitutes a majority of anti-vaxers in this thread, so there's that. But c'mon, this kind of broad brush stuff isn't helping the pro-vaccine cause.

If I'm wrong about the numbers in this thread, can you give me an accurate count?

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When did AN become a nurse triage line? This is not a professional setting, it's a nurse-focused social media site. I'm personally sick of being scolded for not being "therapeutic" enough every day, all day, regardless of the context or my own feelings.

Willful ignorance, which is what we see from the majority of anti-vaxxers posting here, is a behavior like any other and has consequences. One of those consequences is exasperation when the presentation of real epidemiological facts is met for the umpteenth time with, "But autism! GBS! Thimerisol! Mercury!" What's next - blaming the flu on miasmas from the local swamp?

I get anxiety, fear and wanting the best for one's children. It's no excuse for willfully ignoring the basics of epidemiology and the concept of herd immunity.

I get the concerns about personal autonomy, but that's no excuse for willfully endangering people who have no choice at all about their impaired immune systems.

I have been crystal clear that I am speaking about undecideds. Those with a genuine knowledge deficit.

I am always interested in sincere conversation. The initial question was about conspiracy theory r/t vaccines. My observation was simply that it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to "be" someone who asks questions about vaccines. My next opinion was that the way we answer is of importance. My most recent comment which you have quoted was in direct relation to an expectant poster who seemed (to me) like an undecided, concerned person.

I don't believe I have said anything about personal autonomy.

I understand your exasperation - - but it should be directed at those who don't really have questions or sincere concerns, not those who do. I don't argue with irrational, purposely-provocative people IRL, which is why I've only participated in this thread to the extent that we are talking about those with sincere questions.

I deal with people nearly every day who think everything is a fever, believe that regular old fevers cause brain damage, and who routinely don't know what OTC medicine they have given their children, if any (or, conversely, those who have given portions of aspirin tablets, for another example). I routinely hear from those who are upset that their child isn't the kind of "sick" that requires an antibiotic. I mean, whatcha gonna do? Exasperation has its limits. At some point the only thing to do is try to educate in a genuine manner and then move on...

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Specializes in Hospice.
I know I said I left this thread. Morbid curiosity brings me back, I guess. But please respond to the point I made several times here, but continues to be ignored..... who are the anti-vaxers in this thread? I count one (1). Kooky, I think, is the only anti-vaxer in this thread.

All kinds of accusations about "nurses" here in this thread -- PLURAL -- being anti-science, illogical and unfit for practice --- and yet I count only one person who voiced anti-vax sentiments. I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

So it would seem like there is great broad strokes being used to paint over ANYONE who does not strictly conform to the "I-am-provaccine-and-angry-about-it" mantra. I have been shown the door in this thread multiple times for simply saying something to the effect of 'being right isn't good enough, you gotta be nice about it, too' --- and apparently any kind of statement like that earns me and any other the "anti-vax" label?

This is an important point, because over and over in this thread we have been cautioned about this HUGE threat to scientific intellectualism even within our own profession based on the comments of ONE person. I guess technically that ONE person constitutes a majority of anti-vaxers in this thread, so there's that. But c'mon, this kind of broad brush stuff isn't helping the pro-vaccine cause.

If I'm wrong about the numbers in this thread, can you give me an accurate count?

If there are virtually no anti-vaxxers in the thread, why are we being scolded for being mean to them?

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Specializes in CVICU, MICU, Burn ICU.
If there are virtually no anti-vaxxers in the thread, why are we being scolded for being mean to them?

You didn't answer the question. How many here do you count as anti-vaxers?

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Specializes in Hospice.
You didn't answer the question. How many here do you count as anti-vaxers?

I didn't answer the question because I didn't - and won't - count them. Why is the number of anti-vaxxers in this particular thread relevant, anyway?

This vaccine argument has been going on here for years. Every flu season gets a thread and often more than one. There's yet another thread just been started about flu vaccination at the VA. (That one seems to be starting with the personal autonomy vs. the common good scenario.)

I've loosely followed most of those discussions since I joined AN in 2004 (or ‘05, I forget.) The arguments are the same in every one of them and reflect exactly the willful ignorance i'm talking about. There are very few, if any, sincere” questions to be found at this point that haven't already been addressed in one of those threads. Multiple times.

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I didn't answer the question because I didn't - and won't - count them. Why is the number of anti-vaxxers in this particular thread relevant, anyway. This vaccine argument has been going on here for years. Every flu season gets a thread and often more than one. There's one just been started about flu vaccination at the VA. I've loosely followed most of them since I joined AN in 2004 ( or ‘05, I forget.) The arguments are the same in every one of them and reflects exactly the willful ignorance i'm talking about.

^^^Yep.

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Specializes in CVICU, MICU, Burn ICU.
I didn't answer the question because I didn't - and won't - count them. Why is the number of anti-vaxxers in this particular thread relevant, anyway. .

It matters because there are pages and pages of angst-laden rhetoric against all of these supposed anti-vax nurses. And it has been said, more than once here, that anti-science will be the undoing of us all based on THIS thread. (*hint: I suspect there are a few nurses here who have been unfairly and incorrectly lumped into the anti-vax category and therefore anything they say must be countered with more links and rhetoric that those very nurses already agree with!)

It matters because it's poor form. Poor form is ineffective and discredits the person who uses it. That doesn't help the cause you claim to be so passionate about.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.

I think it's more than just being completely against vaccines/antivaxxer, but we have seen comments from more than one poster how flu vaccines are not effective/needed, vaccines overwhelming infant immune system, autism/vaccines, autoimmune issues/vaccines, long term effects of vaccines, HPV vaccine/sex issues etc.

I think every excuse that is used to not get vaccines has been discussed and the latest turn seems to be well if you were more warm and cuddly people would get vaccinated more.

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I know I said I left this thread. Morbid curiosity brings me back, I guess. But please respond to the point I made several times here, but continues to be ignored..... who are the anti-vaxers in this thread? I count one (1). Kooky, I think, is the only anti-vaxer in this thread.

All kinds of accusations about "nurses" here in this thread -- PLURAL -- being anti-science, illogical and unfit for practice --- and yet I count only one person who voiced anti-vax sentiments. I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

So it would seem like there is great broad strokes being used to paint over ANYONE who does not strictly conform to the "I-am-provaccine-and-angry-about-it" mantra. I have been shown the door in this thread multiple times for simply saying something to the effect of 'being right isn't good enough, you gotta be nice about it, too' --- and apparently any kind of statement like that earns me and any other the "anti-vax" label?

This is an important point, because over and over in this thread we have been cautioned about this HUGE threat to scientific intellectualism even within our own profession based on the comments of ONE person. I guess technically that ONE person constitutes a majority of anti-vaxers in this thread, so there's that. But c'mon, this kind of broad brush stuff isn't helping the pro-vaccine cause.

If I'm wrong about the numbers in this thread, can you give me an accurate count?

And even I have said I am unsure.

It's not possible, I guess, for some people here to not be angry. They just can't remain civil and discuss things without anger. Kind of sad.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
And even I have said I am unsure.

It's not possible, I guess, for some people here to not be angry. They just can't remain civil and discuss things without anger. Kind of sad.

What is truly sad is to see people even when presented with the evidence refuse to acknowledge they are incorrect.

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Countrynurse, I will echo those who have said that research has been conducted to test Wakefield's hypothesis that MMR causes autism all over the world. NONE of the studies was able to replicate his (faked) findings. As a nurse, you surely know that when a conclusion is made in a research study, the only thing we can take from that study is that it warrants further study. Any study which makes a claim MUST be able to show that it can be replicated over and over and over by other studies. That has never happened with any studies looking for a causal link between vaccines and autism.

As to your concern about exposing your baby to too many vaccines, this is interesting to consider:

Vaccines 11: Too Much Too Soon? | The Scientific Parent

Hope that helps.

This was actually helpful. Wish you had posted it sooner instead of calling me names and being mean.

How is the purity of vaccines today compared to in the past? Purity being the absence of foreign matter and unnamed antigens.

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