We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
I'm one of the few folks I know who actually read the MMR/autism study YEARS AGO before it was banned because it did not jive with healthcare propaganda. The link that was found between autism and MMR was that EVERY CHILD WHO DEVELOPED AUTISM AFTER VACCINATION HAD GUT INFLAMMATION AT THE TIME OF VACCINATION. A correlation was drawn and it was speculated that susceptible children needed to be identified and more research done. It did not make the claims that so many people later speculated it did; it merely pointed out that there was more room for study. If you have also read the amount of independent PUBLISHED (yes) research done on GMOs and gut inflammation, especially in children, you might think again before you propagandize to others.
No one has the right to push MEDICINE on anyone else.
Co-incidentally, an independent local study was done in my area, showing that in a population on Vashon island of unvaccinated children (very high population of highly educated parents and high population of unvaccinated children), NOT ONE had a peanut allergy, while their vaccinated counterparts showed significant increase in the allergy. Again, no one claims vaccines are directly related, but could they be linked?
Shall I go on?
Please read my earlier post about vaccination bypassing the cellular response mechanism in favor of a humeral response only, which is why we gain temporary, partial (or are sometimes completely unresponsive) long-term immunity after vaccination. Cellular response in a healthy person is typically able to knock out virus before it invades, sending messengers back to make long-term antibody, all without the individual's knowledge. Herd immunity is not achieved by vaccination at all, which is why the flu shot argument never holds water. Herd immunity is far more likely when populations contract and fight disease, developing antibody that is then faster to replicate when similar disease breaks out in a community. This goes all the back to smallpox, and certainly works for the flu. Did you know that each and every blood type has natural antibody for specific flu types?
The list of adjuvants in vaccines is very, very long and highly toxic. Aluminum (does not leave the brain once it passes the blood-brain barrier) is linked to Alzheimer's and other neurological deficits, latex (another common ingredient) is linked to increased allergy, formaldehyde (yes, also in many beauty products, including topical creams, lotions and makeup found at your local Sephora) is a carcinogen, etc, etc, etc. There are sooooooo many. Why would you want these items injected into your body to MAYBE gain immunity to something that DOESN'T KILL YOU ANYWAY???? And exactly how am I here at all if my family all had measles, mumps, etc, if it's so damn deadly?
Oh, that's right...we're only worried about babies. No problem, I think we should all jeopardize our health, risking not only short-term vaccine reaction (my future daughter in law- a celiac- lost her job last year, developed a full-body skin reaction and lost all of her hair after a routine flu shot that her GP stated she "needed"), but also long-term chronic disease so that our current babies can be healthy. Gosh oh golly, I wonder if their parents will opt out of vaccination once they're out of that grey area of babyhood and thank me when my own child is damaged to the point of no return?
Should I shame each and every one of you who doesn't take care of yourself, spreading disease and wasting my tax dollars with your overweight, junk-food eating bodies? I'm sorry but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
-mother of a celiac, FTT child who attends private school
Where are these studies on gut inflammation and GMO? Gut inflammation is the newest research with autism right now, but it still has not panned out and it certainly has not shown to have anything at all to do with vaccines.
Your theory on herd immunity is incorrect, and you did not again offer any peer-reviewed scientific material to back up any of your statements. How was small pox eliminated and polio nearly eliminated if not for herd immunity? Please don't say it was already on the decline, because that has already been debunked on this thread or better yet don't post any responses without actual peer-reviewed scientific research.
I would love to see proof that the flu vaccine caused this problem you described, and not just your word for it. Where is the published case study on this rare reaction?
I told her that I was quite certain that the MMR vax did NOT cause my child's autism, as he exhibited characteristics of that disorder LONG before he ever received the vaccination. Still, she persisted, the MMR most probably "enhanced" the traits. Ummm.....NO, the kid was autistic, I KNEW he was autistic, he was a walking BILLBOARD for autism, and he hadn't come anywhere NEAR the danged vaccination at that point! I just happened to be a mom of an older child so I had a pretty good idea of developmental milestones, etc,
My friend of over 30 years who has an autistic son said basically the same thing. She knew long before he had the MMR or most vaccines that something was very different about her kid. He was her first child, but she still knew.
See again my post on page 75 #744 and page 78 #770. That's what I stand by. No amount of badgering from any of you will change that.
This is an ethical issue. Vaccinate yourself, but stop trying to force your views on others. Many disagree. Get over it. This is just one little message board out of thousands of people who feel vaccinations cause harm. So go on, get your vaccinations, eat crap, use products with ingredients known to cause cancer, drink your fluoridated water, sit on these message boards spewing negativity and hate. See where it gets you in life. The truth is, as holistic stated, our tax dollars will go into paying for your poor choices in making yourself sick. But yet I should get vaccinated against a disease I'll probably never come into contact with? It's such BS. You all sound like you are working for the gov or bigPharm promoting vaccines.
In response to the original question above, nurses do not deny science as there is science that supports both sides of the vaccine debate. You can't say that, because they deny YOUR science, that they are wrong. Your science, meaning the science you choose to look at and agree with. There are plenty of issues with vaccines that have been brought up in various scientific data. There are "peer reviewed" studies out there that bring up issues with vaccines. I wouldn't lose respect or judge them for their views. They obviously came upon the decision not to vaccinate by being open minded and objectively looking at data. Who are you to judge?
The reasons parents choose not to vaccinate are many: scientific flaws, scientific fraud, questionable ingredients, possible autoimmune issues, asthma, ADHD, safety is not assured, etc. After all, vaccination is a RISK. Injuries often go unreported, so we aren't quite sure the exact numbers of adverse reactions or injuries. Who is anyone to tell anyone else that they should receive a vaccine even though it could kill their child. It's not your choice, it's not my choice, it is the parents choice. It's up to the parent to decide if they want to RISK giving their child a vaccine. It's just that simple.
Some parents who chose not to vaccinate do so because they feel that VACCINES CAUSE disease. Why would they inject their children with a vaccine that could lead to autoimmune disorders or other health issues in the future? Also, many of the diseases we vaccinate against are mild. Nutrition plays a major role in our health. For those who eat well, the chance at getting many of these diseases are slim.
I feel it's a problem when a young mother takes her baby for a checkup and is given a single page of information on the vaccines her child is to receive. This bit of information is most likely the only information this mother knows about the vaccine, assuming she hasn't done any research and reading on her own. She has no idea about the ingredients, the chance of adverse reaction, the possible risks, and all the things that some of us know goes on behind the scenes. She is basically handed a paper to read at her convenience and the baby gets the shots. I don't feel that is properly informing the mother.
I provided an article that answers your question as to why parents choose not to vaccinate. I think it sums it up pretty well. I don't tend to focus on the autism side. I'm more on the side of ingredients, questionable data, bigPharm, and possible health issues it causes down the road.
Off topic but along the same lines:
If we look around, we can see that pharmaceutical companies have invaded our lives. They market drugs to us via TV commercials, magazine ads, and billboards. They tell us, "Just ask your doctor." They want us to be drug dependent. That's how they make money. There is a pill for everything. Many people don't realize that they could be healthy and drug free if they only took better care of their bodies by eating right and being more conscious about the products they use or consume. I feel it's imperative that we get back to nature and avoid as many toxins as possible. We can affect how our genes are expressed. We could have a genetic predisposition to something, but we also have the power to affect whether or not those genes are expressed and turned on.
Every piece of "data" you provided on not getting vaccines has been debunked on this thread several times over.
Everything adjunct in vaccines that you questioned occurs naturally and everyone gets more daily than over a lifetime of vaccines (formaldehyde and aluminum).
There isn't a person on here that has denied vaccines have adverse reactions, but you have consistently implied that those severe adverse reactions occur much more frequently than they actually do.
A person is thousands of time more likely to die and/or experience a serious adverse reaction from a vaccine preventable illness/disease than a vaccine.
People have the right to choose decisions about their own health when it only effects their health. A person does not have the right to make decisions about their health that has the potential to effect everyone else's health.
"Big Pharma" is nothing more than a conspiracy theory with vaccines. Older vaccines are not big money makers for pharmaceutical companies. Pharmaceutical do not participate/fund the research very much with vaccine research after phase 2/3 testing and FDA approval, but vaccines are still the only medication that continuously undergoes phase 4/post-marketing testing funded by the government.
Everything you have said in your post has basically no scientific basis.
Where are these studies on gut inflammation and GMO? Gut inflammation and is the newest research with autism right, but it still has not panned out and it certainly has shown to have nothing at all to do with vaccines.
There is a ton of research about gut inflammation out there. The gut is being called the second brain, and it has been found that Parkinson's begins in the gut as well as many other diseases. GMO's play a major role in this because they contain bacteria that affect our gut microbiome.
I can't believe I'm still reading this thread, but it's like watching a train wreck -- it's awful, but I can't turn away. I think Megan McArdle offers a good, practical compromise on this issue:
See again my post on page 75 #744 and page 78 #770. That's what I stand by. No amount of badgering from any of you will change that.
This is an ethical issue. Vaccinate yourself, but stop trying to force your views on others. Many disagree. Get over it. This is just one little message board out of thousands of people who feel vaccinations cause harm. So go on, get your vaccinations, eat crap, use products with ingredients known to cause cancer, drink your fluoridated water, sit on these message boards spewing negativity and hate. See where it gets you in life. The truth is, as holistic stated, our tax dollars will go into paying for your poor choices in making yourself sick. But yet I should get vaccinated against a disease I'll probably never come into contact with? It's such BS. You all sound like you are working for the gov or bigPharm promoting vaccines.
No one is interested in changing your mind. They are simply interested in exposing your poor methods of evaluating the literature, and they have done that very well. You, with your 2.5 years of experience and self taught analysis, have been exposed as a fraud with respect to defending your claims with anything even remotely resembling facts, "data," or research which stands up to peer review. Your hypocrisy as it relates to "spewing hate" and angry tone is also very well in evidence the more you post. You make the wisdom of the opposing position all the more obvious with every post you make. It's almost too easy.
People have the right to choose decisions about their own health when it only effect their health. A person does not have the right to make decisions about their health that has the potential to effect everyone else's health.
It doesn't affect you. You have no right to force me to inject something into my body that I do not want. Something that I feel will cause more harm than good. I'm pretty sure there will be a revolution if it gets to the point where people think they can force such a thing on someone else.
Yeah I advocate for my patient's. I do that by not withholding information from them.
It is not withholding information when you give someone the complete education sheet on vaccines from an approved government health source. This gives the scientific basis for being vaccinated that has been shown in thousands of research studies to be true and it also gives the statistics of adverse reactions for the different types of vaccines to the patient.
After reading your posts I am pretty sure you are not doing those things. You don't understand about vaccine adjuncts and you have consistently overestimated the serious adverse reactions to vaccines.
I missed the people with Doctorates on this thread that are arguing against vaccination. Do you care to point them out?
Actually, having a DNP or DNAP does imply that you are an expert at evaluating medical/nursing literature. There will always be something we don't know, but we are trained to critically evaluate medical studies. We have proven our expertise among other academics that hold a doctorate on many occasions and we submit our final research through an academic committee to prove that we know how to expertly critically evaluate literature. I think our hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours, of guided analysis of the literature outweighs anything that you have self taught yourself about critically evaluating scientific literature.
Of course it does. I think everyone on this thread knows this and most of us have learned a thing or two from your very helpful posts.
Okay, then if you understand how to dissect literature why haven't been able to identify the differences in systematic literature reviews, meta-analysis, RCTs, reviews, commentary, perspective, and opinion pieces? You have lumped them all together and consider all these type of articles to carry the same scientific weight.
This is where "you don't know what you don't know" becomes very obvious.
See again my post on page 75 #744 and page 78 #770. That's what I stand by. No amount of badgering from any of you will change that.
This is an ethical issue. Vaccinate yourself, but stop trying to force your views on others. Many disagree. Get over it. This is just one little message board out of thousands of people who feel vaccinations cause harm. So go on, get your vaccinations, eat crap, use products with ingredients known to cause cancer, drink your fluoridated water, sit on these message boards spewing negativity and hate. See where it gets you in life. The truth is, as holistic stated, our tax dollars will go into paying for your poor choices in making yourself sick. But yet I should get vaccinated against a disease I'll probably never come into contact with? It's such BS. You all sound like you are working for the gov or bigPharm promoting vaccines.
Getting the flu vaccine, especially among healthcare workers, has been shown to decrease mortality in our patients, but yet you refuse the flu vaccine.
I find that a much larger ethical dilemma than mandating vaccines to promote public health.
wtbcrna, MSN, DNP, CRNA
5,128 Posts
Are you talking about the Wakefield study where Dr. Wakefield falsified all the 12 of the patients' data in order to fit his hypothesis? Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds - CNN.com
Vaccination Issues in Patients with Inflammatory Bowel Disease Receiving Immunosuppression
Safety of vaccines used for routine immunization of U.S. children: ... - PubMed - NCBI
A brief history of autism, the autism/vaccine hypothesis and a revi... - PubMed - NCBI
Where are these studies on gut inflammation and GMO? Gut inflammation is the newest research with autism right now, but it still has not panned out and it certainly has not shown to have anything at all to do with vaccines.
Your theory on herd immunity is incorrect, and you did not again offer any peer-reviewed scientific material to back up any of your statements. How was small pox eliminated and polio nearly eliminated if not for herd immunity? Please don't say it was already on the decline, because that has already been debunked on this thread or better yet don't post any responses without actual peer-reviewed scientific research.
Duration of Pertussis Immunity After DTaP Immunization: A Meta-anal... - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25057386
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25003085
You do realize you make and have more formaldehyde in your body on a daily basis, even as newborn, than typically all the formaldehyde contained in all the vaccines you would receive over a lifetime of recommended vaccinations. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm
I would love to see proof that the flu vaccine caused this problem you described, and not just your word for it. Where is the published case study on this rare reaction?