We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
To me, it seems you don't know how to evaluate data well. Your biased view holds you back from seeing anything else. Out of everything I have posted you focus on autism and conspiracy? I just can't help you.
Andi i have yet to see your rebuttal of a single item that I have challenged you on. I have evaluated each piece of evidence you have presented several times and I have not once seen you try and refute it. Honestly, I doubt you have even read the studies themselves.
Much of what you have chosen to post about is related to autism, and to a lesser extent, conspiracy theory. That is why people have responded to it.
If you want to talk about other issues related to vaccines, let's hear those issues.
Andi both BostonFNP and myself have our Doctorates. The focus of those degrees that we earned was on how to evaluate scientific literature and how to implement research into practice.
What formal education have you had to evaluate scientific literature?
Just because you can find an article saying something is theoretically possible does not make it a fact, especially when there are systematic reviews from actual research showing all these things do not occur.
Actually, the autism part was only reason #1. There are 6 reasons listed. Important reasons as well. To say there is absolutely no link between vaccines and autism is not right. There are studies that prove and disprove it. So there is no clear answer.
No. Autism is in the title for point number one, but it's also mentioned under points 2, 5, and 6 as well. Points 3 and 4 deal with vaccine injury and "neurodevelopmental disorders" aka autism are mentioned under point 4.
As I said, that whole post is basically, "Because autism."
Edit: correction - autoimmune disorders are mentioned under #4, but some in the autism community suspect that some forms of it may be autoimmune, as a good friend with an autistic son once explained to me. PS all 6 of her children are vaccinated.
If you focused on just the autism part, you missed a lot of other info in the article. It gave more reasons. It offered a lot. I think it explained the reasons parents hesitate or avoid vaccines. That's the point of the article. To show people like you, people who think vaccines are next to God, that look, vaccines aren't all you think they're cracked up to be.
While this article does discuss why there are parents who take the stand that vaccination is bad, it has zero place (none, nada) in an academic discussion about the value of vaccinations. A group of people who say "because I said so, that's why they're bad" is NOT tantamount to proof of anything other than the existence of people who will say "because I said so".....because they can.
I doubt anyone here needs a link to an article that explains why there are hysterical and irrational beliefs out there; we see them ALL the time.....including here on AN.
Again, you think you know everything. Unfortunately, you do not. Until you take a humble approach to learning, you will not gain wisdom.
I'm guessing you believe wisdom is gained through superficial "research" of opinion pieces that only support ONE side of a frequently-disproven agenda? Your have no blinders whatsoever, but people who recognize the value of vaccination do?
I don't think Boston needs any support from me, but I'd take his version of 'wisdom' over.... .this......any day of the week.
No. Autism is in the title for point number one, but it's also mentioned under points 2, 5, and 6 as well. Points 3 and 4 deal with vaccine injury and "neurodevelopmental disorders" aka autism are mentioned under point 4.
As I said, that whole post is basically, "Because autism."
Thank you for addressing this. If Andi thinks that autism is only discussed as Point #1, then SHE has not read this article; the spectre of fear for possibly creating an autistic child through vaccination looms throughout the entire opinion piece.
I meant to thank you for the graph demonstrating the rise of consumption of organic foods and comparing that to the rise in the autism rate. I think I'll use that in the future, thanks :)
Andi both BostonFNP and myself have our Doctorates. The focus of those degrees that we earned was on how to evaluate scientific literature and how to implement research into practice.
That's great you do! Really, I don't care what piece of paper you received from a college. You use that to make others think they should believe you over anyone else. That doesn't mean you are an expert. It just means that you spent a lot of money to get a piece of paper. People can learn without school. People can study and dissect information for themselves. There are many who have doctorates and believe the exact opposite of what you claim in this thread too.
I'm one of the few folks I know who actually read the MMR/autism study YEARS AGO before it was banned because it did not jive with healthcare propaganda. The link that was found between autism and MMR was that EVERY CHILD WHO DEVELOPED AUTISM AFTER VACCINATION HAD GUT INFLAMMATION AT THE TIME OF VACCINATION. A correlation was drawn and it was speculated that susceptible children needed to be identified and more research done. It did not make the claims that so many people later speculated it did; it merely pointed out that there was more room for study. If you have also read the amount of independent PUBLISHED (yes) research done on GMOs and gut inflammation, especially in children, you might think again before you propagandize to others.
No one has the right to push MEDICINE on anyone else.
Co-incidentally, an independent local study was done in my area, showing that in a population on Vashon island of unvaccinated children (very high population of highly educated parents and high population of unvaccinated children), NOT ONE had a peanut allergy, while their vaccinated counterparts showed significant increase in the allergy. Again, no one claims vaccines are directly related, but could they be linked?
Shall I go on?
Please read my earlier post about vaccination bypassing the cellular response mechanism in favor of a humeral response only, which is why we gain temporary, partial (or are sometimes completely unresponsive) long-term immunity after vaccination. Cellular response in a healthy person is typically able to knock out virus before it invades, sending messengers back to make long-term antibody, all without the individual's knowledge. Herd immunity is not achieved by vaccination at all, which is why the flu shot argument never holds water. Herd immunity is far more likely when populations contract and fight disease, developing antibody that is then faster to replicate when similar disease breaks out in a community. This goes all the back to smallpox, and certainly works for the flu. Did you know that each and every blood type has natural antibody for specific flu types?
The list of adjuvants in vaccines is very, very long and highly toxic. Aluminum (does not leave the brain once it passes the blood-brain barrier) is linked to Alzheimer's and other neurological deficits, latex (another common ingredient) is linked to increased allergy, formaldehyde (yes, also in many beauty products, including topical creams, lotions and makeup found at your local Sephora) is a carcinogen, etc, etc, etc. There are sooooooo many. Why would you want these items injected into your body to MAYBE gain immunity to something that DOESN'T KILL YOU ANYWAY???? And exactly how am I here at all if my family all had measles, mumps, etc, if it's so damn deadly?
Oh, that's right...we're only worried about babies. No problem, I think we should all jeopardize our health, risking not only short-term vaccine reaction (my future daughter in law- a celiac- lost her job last year, developed a full-body skin reaction and lost all of her hair after a routine flu shot that her GP stated she "needed"), but also long-term chronic disease so that our current babies can be healthy. Gosh oh golly, I wonder if their parents will opt out of vaccination once they're out of that grey area of babyhood and thank me when my own child is damaged to the point of no return?
Should I shame each and every one of you who doesn't take care of yourself, spreading disease and wasting my tax dollars with your overweight, junk-food eating bodies? I'm sorry but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
-mother of a celiac, FTT child who attends private school
I'm wondering just how many people with higher degrees feel that they have "spent a lot of money to get a piece of paper"; that blank notebook paper is the equivalent value of that education. Or if that position is primarily held by those with lesser degrees. Hmmmm....actually, I'm not really wondering, I can guess the answer to that.
Statements like that should embarrass the speaker. The inability to recognize the value of an advanced education is an embarrassment in and of itself; that it comes from supposed healthcare professionals makes it a bit worse, IMHO. A real shame, actually.
So where does that leave us? Now that we're on page 77 of this lively discussion, all we have learned is that there is considerable factual evidence to support routine immunizations against diseases for all healthy children and adults.......and that there is no factual evidence to support statements made that routine vaccinations are inherently harmful to those same children and adults.
In other words.....what *most* of us already knew.
BostonFNP, APRN
2 Articles; 5,584 Posts
Andi i have yet to see your rebuttal of a single item that I have challenged you on. I have evaluated each piece of evidence you have presented several times and I have not once seen you try and refute it. Honestly, I doubt you have even read the studies themselves.
Much of what you have chosen to post about is related to autism, and to a lesser extent, conspiracy theory. That is why people have responded to it.
If you want to talk about other issues related to vaccines, let's hear those issues.