We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
I don't have time to read through all these comments, but this came across my email and thought I'd just give a quick reply, since your understanding of WHY I (and I suspect many others) choose not to vaccinate is a bit off. I'm a nursing student, by the way, with 10 months left of my program; however, I am a mother of two and have been learning about vaccines for about 5 years. When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against). I was very conflicted. I ended up doing very selective/delayed vaccines for the first year of her life, but I was not confident that this was the right decision, and I lost much sleep laying in bed pondering this dilemma. Do vaccines save lives? I believe so. Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely. Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes. Is there a no-fault, government-run court system designed specifically to hear vaccine death/injury cases that will quietly pay you for the death/injury of your vaccine damaged child? YES!
Are vaccines worth the risk? Is NOT vaccinating worth the risk? These are tough questions that require much research and contemplation. Frankly, when I hear people say things like "Are you serious?" I get the feeling they haven't really put a whole lot of time or effort into researching and understanding the situation. This is not black and white. There is real danger in vaccines and dismissing that, especially without researching the opposing point of view, is, quite frankly, ignorant.
Do I believe in science? Of course. I've never met a nurse or nursing student who doesn't believe in science. I have met a few who have failed to fully research a topic... and as I think someone else pointed out, allow their fear and emotions to make up their mind. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but fear and emotion tend to run BOTH sides of this debate.
After that first year I made the (educated) decision to stop vaccinating. My daughter has had a handful, my son will never have any. Do I deny science? Of course not. I believe the SCIENCE behind vaccines is sound (though I am fairly certain the efficacy rates of many are inflated). The execution, however, leaves something to be desired. So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)
After that first year I made the (educated) decision to stop vaccinating. My daughter has had a handful, my son will never have any. Do I deny science? Of course not. I believe the SCIENCE behind vaccines is sound (though I am fairly certain the efficacy rates of many are inflated). The execution, however, leaves something to be desired. So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)
You're willing to risk this for your child for no good reason, and it's a very real risk in the US right now:
Uh, no dear, that's reality, not feelings. There is still basically nothing they can do if measles turns into encephalitis, and you can't predict which child that will be. A recent poll shows a huge difference in opinion on whether vaccination should be mandatory between those above 65 and those below. The reason for that is clear. Those older folks actually saw these diseases in real life, had friends paralyzed or in iron lungs, buddies who couldn't have kids because of mumps. They don't have luxury of regarding these diseases as no real threat because they KNOW that's not true. Your understanding of vaccinations and the science behind them is flawed and you're risking your children's lives with your hubris.
Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)
I'll try to avoid the bashing part, but I do have a few questions and comments.
When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against).I was very conflicted.
I assume that the research you've read is peer-reviewed and published in reputable scientific journals? What kind of books have you read? The reason I ask, is that there are many books published on the subject that don't contain even one molecule of scientific data, but only promotes the author's "anti-vaccine" agenda.
The research and epedimiological data I've reviewed show clear benefits of childhood immunization vaccines. I genuinely don't see much to be conflicted about.
Do I believe in science? Of course. I've never met a nurse or nursing student who doesn't believe in science.
Sadly there seems to be quite a few of those right here in this thread.
So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Which diseases are you comfortable taking your (children's) and also other people's chances with?
I honestly think that the only reason you and others don't seem to be very afraid of some of these diseases is because they've become extremely rare in our part of the world. If you knew more people who'd lost their children to these diseases or met people who'd survived them with serious sequelae, you probably would feel differently.
The reason they've become rare or close to eradicated is vaccines. If enough people stop taking them we will see a change.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but fear and emotion tend to run BOTH sides of this debate.
I definitely agree. I fear what will happen if parents stop vaccinating their children and it's hard not to be emotional about children dying unnecessarily from vaccine-preventable diseases. However, my emotions have no impact on how I read research.
Uh, no dear, that's reality, not feelings. There is still basically nothing they can do if measles turns into encephalitis, and you can't predict which child that will be. A recent poll shows a huge difference in opinion on whether vaccination should be mandatory between those above 65 and those below. The reason for that is clear. Those older folks actually saw these diseases in real life, had friends paralyzed or in iron lungs, buddies who couldn't have kids because of mumps. They don't have luxury of regarding these diseases as no real threat because they KNOW that's not true. Your understanding of vaccinations and the science behind them is flawed and you're risking your children's lives with your hubris.
That article was nothing but an appeal to fear and emotion.
In either case, I did not post here to debate this. At this point, I am 100% comfortable with my decision. I do not deny the risks of some of these diseases, nor do I deny the science behind vaccination. You are not telling me anything I don't already know. The difference between you and I is that I made the decision to look OBJECTIVELY at both sides of the argument. I only posted here to share a point of view that the staunchly pro-vaccine don't seem to take into consideration.
I don't have time to read through all these comments, but this came across my email and thought I'd just give a quick reply, since your understanding of WHY I (and I suspect many others) choose not to vaccinate is a bit off.
Perhaps taking the time and reading some of the comments would remind you of the role of scientific process in making these types of decisions.
I'm a nursing student, by the way, with 10 months left of my program; however, I am a mother of two and have been learning about vaccines for about 5 years. When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against). I was very conflicted.
What research did you read that provided you evidence against vaccination? Share it with us.
I ended up doing very selective/delayed vaccines for the first year of her life, but I was not confident that this was the right decision, and I lost much sleep laying in bed pondering this dilemma.
It wasn't. See your next line.
Do vaccines save lives? I believe so.
The data is pretty clear on the reduction in morbidity and mortality with vaccine use.
Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely.
There is inherent risk in acting to vaccine. That risk is very small. There is also risk associated with inaction (no vaccinating, or delaying vaccinations). This risk is much much larger.
Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes.
They damage the immune system? Cite your source on this. If you are talking about the link to AI diseases, the research has demonstrated the risk of AI activation by vaccine is much less than the risk of activation via actual infection.
Are vaccines worth the risk?
Statistically, yes.
Is NOT vaccinating worth the risk?
Statistically, no.
These are tough questions that require much research and contemplation. Frankly, when I hear people say things like "Are you serious?" I get the feeling they haven't really put a whole lot of time or effort into researching and understanding the situation. This is not black and white. There is real danger in vaccines and dismissing that, especially without researching the opposing point of view, is, quite frankly, ignorant.
There is real danger in not vaccinating. The danger from vaccination pales in comparison to that.
So much of the anti-vax debate is based in pseudoscience: you have an opinion and then you look for research to support it. When people who have made the choice not to vaccinate are pressed to produce data to support their belief they can't produce it.
So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Unfortunately if the decades of scientific research on the topic can't persuade you then, likely, nothing can. I just hope your kids don't pay the price for it. Or someone else's kids. They don't have the luxury of being able to stand strong in the face of an overwhelming about out scientific research to the contrary.
I hope they are home schooled, for them and for all the other kids.
I don't have time to read through all these comments, but this came across my email and thought I'd just give a quick reply, since your understanding of WHY I (and I suspect many others) choose not to vaccinate is a bit off. I'm a nursing student, by the way, with 10 months left of my program; however, I am a mother of two and have been learning about vaccines for about 5 years. When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against). I was very conflicted. I ended up doing very selective/delayed vaccines for the first year of her life, but I was not confident that this was the right decision, and I lost much sleep laying in bed pondering this dilemma. Do vaccines save lives? I believe so. Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely. Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes. Is there a no-fault, government-run court system designed specifically to hear vaccine death/injury cases that will quietly pay you for the death/injury of your vaccine damaged child? YES!
Are vaccines worth the risk? Is NOT vaccinating worth the risk? These are tough questions that require much research and contemplation. Frankly, when I hear people say things like "Are you serious?" I get the feeling they haven't really put a whole lot of time or effort into researching and understanding the situation. This is not black and white. There is real danger in vaccines and dismissing that, especially without researching the opposing point of view, is, quite frankly, ignorant.
Do I believe in science? Of course. I've never met a nurse or nursing student who doesn't believe in science. I have met a few who have failed to fully research a topic... and as I think someone else pointed out, allow their fear and emotions to make up their mind. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but fear and emotion tend to run BOTH sides of this debate.
After that first year I made the (educated) decision to stop vaccinating. My daughter has had a handful, my son will never have any. Do I deny science? Of course not. I believe the SCIENCE behind vaccines is sound (though I am fairly certain the efficacy rates of many are inflated). The execution, however, leaves something to be desired. So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)
I'm curious what your vaccination status is
And more curious as to what kind of job you think you'll get if you think you can skip vaccines
Additionally, the lack of vaccination in your home puts your children and your patients at risk
Your children will become potential carriers of virulent diseases, which you in turn can potentially pass to your patients
Please stay away from all areas of Peds, on oncology, the ICU, ambulatory.....in fact I'm having a hard time thinking about what areas of nursing you CAN go into
I don't know how to do the fancy quotes of only pieces and parts of the post, so I'll just use my own quotation marks. :)
"I assume that the research you've read is peer-reviewed and published in reputable scientific journals? What kind of books have you read? The reason I ask, is that there are many books published on the subject that don't contain even one molecule of scientific data, but only promotes the author's "anti-vaccine" agenda.
[COLOR=#000000]The research and epedimiological data I've reviewed show clear benefits of childhood immunization vaccines. I genuinely don't see much to be conflicted about."[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000]Yes, I've read peer-reviewed research. Again, I don't deny the science behind vaccines. Are there benefits? Yes. I don't deny that. However, I refuse to believe that just because something is NOT peer-reviewed it must be invalid. Who would fund major research to study the harmful effects of vaccines? I have serious issues with blindly accepting information just because it's peer-reviewed and discounting all other information just because it's not. I do agree with you, however, that there are some pretty shady books out there. I tried to stick with books with reputable authors and I read both pro- and anti-vaccine books. I wasn't looking to validate an already held belief (I honestly did not have one); I was looking for the truth.
"[/COLOR]Which diseases are you comfortable taking your (children's) and also other people's chances with?
[COLOR=#000000]I honestly think that the only reason you and others don't seem to be very afraid of some of these diseases is because they've become extremely rare in our part of the world. If you knew more people who'd lost their children to these diseases or met people who'd survived them with serious sequelae, you probably would feel differently."[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000]Maybe. Maybe not. We can do "what if" all day. What if they chose to manufacture safer vaccines (and yes, I believe it is a choice)? Would I use them? All I can do is work with what IS. Can I justify exposing my children to vaccines when I believe the likelihood of harm from them is greater than the [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]likelihood that my children will contract and die/suffer disability from these diseases? No, I cannot. [/COLOR]
Do vaccines save lives? I believe so. Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely. Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes. Is there a no-fault, government-run court system designed specifically to hear vaccine death/injury cases that will quietly pay you for the death/injury of your vaccine damaged child? YES!
Can you provide a LEGITIMATE reference saying that vaccines are damaging to your immune and nervous system? One backed by QUALITY research by someone qualified to do it? I did a little research myself, and it turns out prescription medications take 100,000 lives annually d/t adverse drug reactions. Reported deaths following vaccination were 122 (& weren't all deemed d/t vaccines), despite the fact the millions to billions of vaccines are now administered annually in the US. Should we stop taking prescription meds since they're so much more deadly? Or should we rationally conclude that having a serious reaction to a vaccine is an exceptionally rare event?
My kids were vaccinated late. They are homeschooled. We didn't go to Disney. My pdd kid did not get mmr till he was walking and talking. Tdap is the only one that seemed to set him back a few months.
My distrust of the perfect safety and effectiveness of vaccines has to do with that waiver I have to sign and the federal protections in place for the vaccine manufacturers, including the fact that the cdc contracts to pay for leftover flu vaccine and then encourages people to get the shot. That would be considered conflict of interest if they were a person instead of a government / corporate entity.
aubrienora
21 Posts
I don't have time to read through all these comments, but this came across my email and thought I'd just give a quick reply, since your understanding of WHY I (and I suspect many others) choose not to vaccinate is a bit off. I'm a nursing student, by the way, with 10 months left of my program; however, I am a mother of two and have been learning about vaccines for about 5 years. When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against). I was very conflicted. I ended up doing very selective/delayed vaccines for the first year of her life, but I was not confident that this was the right decision, and I lost much sleep laying in bed pondering this dilemma. Do vaccines save lives? I believe so. Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely. Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes. Is there a no-fault, government-run court system designed specifically to hear vaccine death/injury cases that will quietly pay you for the death/injury of your vaccine damaged child? YES!
Are vaccines worth the risk? Is NOT vaccinating worth the risk? These are tough questions that require much research and contemplation. Frankly, when I hear people say things like "Are you serious?" I get the feeling they haven't really put a whole lot of time or effort into researching and understanding the situation. This is not black and white. There is real danger in vaccines and dismissing that, especially without researching the opposing point of view, is, quite frankly, ignorant.
Do I believe in science? Of course. I've never met a nurse or nursing student who doesn't believe in science. I have met a few who have failed to fully research a topic... and as I think someone else pointed out, allow their fear and emotions to make up their mind. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but fear and emotion tend to run BOTH sides of this debate.
After that first year I made the (educated) decision to stop vaccinating. My daughter has had a handful, my son will never have any. Do I deny science? Of course not. I believe the SCIENCE behind vaccines is sound (though I am fairly certain the efficacy rates of many are inflated). The execution, however, leaves something to be desired. So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious.
Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)