Almost done with RN-to-BSN. Very disappointed.

[Kosmonavt]

I'm in a third and final semester of RN-to-BSN program. Today I had another class of "Community health nursing". It was so boring that most students were falling asleep. I don't understand what is a purpose of BSN degree if the only difference from ADN is that you have to take a whole bunch of useless classes that have nothing to do with the art of medicine. So far I took six so-called nursing classes and did not have to open a book to get through. All the used book at the campus bookstore look like new which means other students did not touch them either.

I will list classes that are required for BSN degree at my university:

First semester:

1. Professional nursing.

2. Health assessment.

3. Transcultural nursing.

Second semester:

1. Issues facing profession.

2. Nursing research.

3. Leadership and management.

Third semester (currently taking)

1. RN-BSN seminar.

2. Community health nursing.

3. Community health (practicum).

I can't say much about community health practicum so far, but I'm telling you the other classes (except for the health assessment and research classes) is a waste of time and money. The majority of my classmates have the same opinion.

Yes, I will have BSN after my name, and I will be able to get international experience in other Westen countries (which I'm looking for), but it does not give me any advantage teaching me new skills or giving the knowledge that is valuable in clinical settings.

I would like to hear opinions of others currently enrolled in RN-to-BSN program or who have already graduated.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Funny, I always thought of it the other way around...that the adn was a great deal, equally well prepared to enter the profession at a lower cost (in general, state cc vs. state uni). Interesting difference in perspective I hadn't thought of.

Still think the adn is the way to go, unless (like in my situation), the only difference was in terms of tuition cost (i.e same time to complete the degree). Get the adn, then complete rn-bsn, while already earning as an rn, and maybe with facility tuition assistance.

I work in a critical care area (NICU), where adn new-grad nurses are very well represented. Many have acted as resource nurses to me during my first year of practice.

Heck, I'd love to be able to claim that the bsn prepares a superior clinician right out of the gate. We all know that is not the case. Arguements for bsn as entry-to-practice seem to always end up being about 1) "respect" from other professions/"the public" or 2) better preparation for management-type positions down the line. Counter-arguments generally can just say 1) equivalent clinical education, 2) same entry-to-practice exam, and 3) almost universally same starting pay/job description. Pretty strong argument in my opinion.

I've even read suggestions (by the "leaders" of our profession in the academic world) for the msn to be the entry to practice. Why stop there? I propose the DNP as entry to rn practice, msn for the lpn, and bsn for the cna.

Seriously, as I stated before, I have much respect for the adn nurses. I'm think it's great if you want to pursue the bsn. I think some advanced instruction in research utilization, leadership/management theory, etc. can be a good thing. I'm sorry to see that some adns are disappointed by what they get out of going rn-bsn. You all have earned the right to get something worthwhile out of this extended education.

One of my favorite clinical instructors had his msn (generalist, not np or cns). He quite frankly told us that he had done it simply to expand his knowledge. He was still a charge nurse, as well as an awesome clinical instructor. I have great respect for pursuing education for it's own sake, and with the hope of making your practice that much better. (As an aside, I found out last night he is now the manager of the unit that he used to charge...good for him!).

I completely agree that neither degree prepares better clinicians than the other be it ER, critical care, NICU or anywhere, and the ADN is usually the better deal in terms of cost. But in the end if the difference between a BSN and ADN is a course or two, the ADNs are getting ripped off, maybe not financially since it's cheaper but in opportunity and degree.

[psychonaut]

I completely agree that neither degree prepares better clinicians than the other be it ER, critical care, NICU or anywhere, and the ADN is usually the better deal in terms of cost. But in the end if the difference between a BSN and ADN is a course or two, the ADNs are getting ripped off, maybe not financially since it's cheaper but in opportunity and degree.

Fair enough, I see your point, and I can respect it. I still think it can go the other way...if the bsn in getting essentially the same education as the adn, and the only "advantage" is the increased management-type positions potentially available, this is a slim recompense for the increased money spent for the degree.

An analogy: I took two semesters of organic chemistry at a community college. The second semester course is identical to the same course offered at the university, including using the same national o-chem exam as the final, with the same grading scale. However, at the cc, the course is credited as a "lower-division" (i.e. 200-level) course, simply because by law the cc cannot offer upper-division undergrad courses. At the uni, the course is an upper-division (400-level) class. Thus, the only advantage to taking the course at the university (for 2x the tuition) is that the course counts as upper-division.

I'm actually very pleased to be discussing this with you, it is a perspective I had never considered. Ironic, I may feel a little gipped at the cost for an education that I could have gotten the equivalent of at a cc for 1/2 the cost. You feel a little gipped that you have potentially fewer opportunities, despite having a near-equivalent education, simply because of where you got your education. Interesting, huh?

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Fair enough, I see your point, and I can respect it. I still think it can go the other way...if the bsn in getting essentially the same education as the adn, and the only "advantage" is the increased management-type positions potentially available, this is a slim recompense for the increased money spent for the degree.

The Nursing Directors and the VP of nursing make plenty of money. Big hospitals pay big bucks for higher up administration, so don't poo poo the money to made by a BSN who wants to go into leadership.

Also there are plenty of the rewarding positions outside of management that require or where a BSN would get the edge, such as unit educator, medical quality management, public heatlh, research, safety, sales, teaching, on and on and on.

Many ADNs in certain parts of the country do advance to these positions and many floor nurses with ADNs make good money as well.

I understand that cost of education vs. reward is important, but sometimes it's not just about the money. Sometimes we just have to invest in ourselves and our future.

I have my BSN in my pocket so one day as I age I can move away from the floor. Right now I'm a charge nurse RN III doing well financially and mostly liking my job, but I still have 15 to 20 more years to work and I shudder to think I'll be doing floor nursing that long.

I lucked out. I went to a ADN school in the dark ages that charges $27.00/credit hour and while my BSN was about $250 per credit hour, I'm getting loan forgiveness from the State of Florida and my loans will be paid off in two years.

It's great to be a nurse and have so many options.

Thanks for listening.

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

I'm not doing the BSN for the money. Where I am, and at this point in my life, I'm not going to go much further. That isn't the point, for me. I always assumed I would obtain a four year degree, and so what if I've been at it since 1971.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I lucked out. I went to a ADN school in the dark ages that charges $27.00/credit hour and while my BSN was about $250 per credit hour, I'm getting loan forgiveness from the State of Florida and my loans will be paid off in two years.

Whoa Tweety - my ADN cost $13 a unit 10 years ago at a community college. My RN-BSN program is costing me about $15,000.

NO loan forgiveness

steph

[llg, PhD, RN]

I have read your theory debates with Timothy with great interest.

I realize that some of my theory posts are beginning to "channel" him, and I'm not sure that is helpful in any way.

If we were to get into a theory thread, I would love to get a chance to partake in your knowledge and opinions of nursing theory.

I would do my very best not to simply disagree with your position on the relevence of nursing theory. I would value an opportunity to actually discuss/debate the strengths/weaknesses of nursing theories, how they are developed, tested, taught, etc.

I say this because I admire your willingness to discuss this subject, but I imagine that you must get a bit weary because everytime you post, "I teach nursing theory, and find it a valuable part of the nursing profession," someone like me pops up and says, "No, nursing theory sucks!"

If such a thread pops up, I would be fortunate to engage you in a discussion.

Thank you. I appreciate your kind thoughts.

It does make me very weary -- particularly when so many people approach the subject with closed minds. They have a bad theory course in school taught by some instructor who maybe took 1 or 2 theory courses in her life many years ago (which were not very good) and have a bad experience. From that brief bad exposure to the topic, they conclude that it is ALL garbage and anyone who works in that field is deserving of scorn and derision.

It makes me very tired.

But without the continued development of both philosophical and scientific theories in nursing, our knowledge base will be in grave danger. It is important work for the continued development of our discipline and we can't let the failures of the past prevent us from moving forward now and in the future.

Yes ... there is a lot of bad theory out there. But the only way we are going to have good theory tomorrow is to develop theorists who are up to the challenge. We won't improve nursing academic work unless people "pick up the torch" and carry it forward. Running away from it won't help.

[Jolie, BSN]

I always assumed I would obtain a four year degree, and so what if I've been at it since 1971.

That puts you on track to graduate in the same time frame as Sarah Palin!:wink2::wink2:

[psychonaut]

I have my BSN in my pocket so one day as I age I can move away from the floor. Right now I'm a charge nurse RN III doing well financially and mostly liking my job, but I still have 15 to 20 more years to work and I shudder to think I'll be doing floor nursing that long.

Nurses like you were my *favorite* clinical instructors. These were nurses with a strong clinical background, who had progressed to bsn and msn while working, and were leaders on their floors (charge nurse, cns, etc).

I don't know if that is something you have considered, but I have the feeling you would be excellent at it. Between your experience, your willingness here to help out us newbs, and your recent experience going through the bsn program...well, I just think you would make an awesome clinical instructor for med-surg, fundamentals, etc.

[psychonaut]

Yes ... there is a lot of bad theory out there. But the only way we are going to have good theory tomorrow is to develop theorists who are up to the challenge. We won't improve nursing academic work unless people "pick up the torch" and carry it forward. Running away from it won't help.

I am throwing myself neck-deep into nursing theory (as my recent spate of posts here can attest to). I am taking a theory class (grad-level), and honestly I could "squeak" through with a minimum of effort. However, I made the decision that I was going to give it my very best effort, so that whatever opinion I have in the end will at least be an *informed* opinion.

All these things are swimming around in my mind, all seeming to be interrelated...nursing education in general, bsn vs. adn, nursing model vs medical model, the dnp, nursing theory...

I'm actually finding these subjects quite captivating and thought provoking. I keep coming across your posts in all of these subjects as I mine old threads here, and your insights are helping to mold my own thinking on these subjects. Thank you for that.

[Valerie Salva, BSN, RN]

I want a degree which doesn't exist- a BSN-C degree- Bachelors of Science in Nursing- Clinician degree.

A BSN program with emphasis direct pt care, and charge nurse skills. If there were, I would jump on it.

[SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN]

I want a degree which doesn't exist- a BSN-C degree- Bachelors of Science in Nursing- Clinician degree.

A BSN program with emphasis direct pt care, and charge nurse skills. If there were, I would jump on it.

Suny Stony Brook. That's not what it is called, but it is almost completely pathophys and pharm.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Nurses like you were my *favorite* clinical instructors. These were nurses with a strong clinical background, who had progressed to bsn and msn while working, and were leaders on their floors (charge nurse, cns, etc).

I don't know if that is something you have considered, but I have the feeling you would be excellent at it. Between your experience, your willingness here to help out us newbs, and your recent experience going through the bsn program...well, I just think you would make an awesome clinical instructor for med-surg, fundamentals, etc.

Thanks so much. If I wasn't so lazy, cheap and lethargic about school I would go on and get my Masters and become an instructor, at least part time because I love to teach. The thing I hate most about being a charge nurse is the lack of interaction with the students doing clinicals on our unit, or being a preceptor during their final semester.

I can teach LPNs or RN clinical groups now, but honestly giving up my 16 years at this current job, with the pay and benefits wouldn't be practical (especially since my divorce a couple of years ago and the lack of a 2nd income to help). Sad reality of nursing is that as a charge/floor nurse I'd have to take a pay cut to train new nurses.

But it's something that I have "in my back pocket". LOL