Agism in nursing?

TuesdaysChild · Oct 29, 2016

As a female nurse who has been married to two male nurses (not at the same time), and having had free access to their paycheck stubs, I can attest that male nurses do make more per hour than female nurses. I, having had more education and experience than either of them, was paid the exact same hourly rate as my ex, and he received pay raises earlier (and larger) than mine even then we were supposedly going by a "pay grid" that applied equally to everyone.
My DH and I were hired at the same institution on the same day in the same unit, and he was offered the same pay as me, even though I had additional 5 years of experience, (both total and in the s pecialty), considerably more education and had been published in our specialty. At hire, they listed five hoops that we needed to jump through in order to be promoted from Level I to Level II nurses (or whatever their language entailed) and receive a 5% increase. I jumped through the hoops and he not only did NOT jump through the hoops but declared that he wasn't going to because it was stupid. He got the raise and the promotion. I did not.

Man that would really get my goad! That's a perfect example of cases I've seen. It's opened my eyes to things that really do happen on the job. Ten years ago I was ready to listen with all my eye rolls ready, but I was proven wrong time and again. Examples like The Commuter gave and your story show the reality of it.

Also, to Zooey's comment that maybe he got the promo to meet a criteria, that wouldn't be the case because he's not part of a protected class.

explorereb96, ADN, BSN · Oct 31, 2016

I am sorry for all who have been through discrimination. The problem is that it seems that no one is ever called out on it. I don't think it's even wise that you were working in the same unit as your DH (regardless if you worked different hours etc). Even if he were your ex, it's still not Kosher in my book. I definitely would have inquired as to why I was passed up by someone who had less experience etc. I too was passed up for a supervisory position by a male RN (the position could have been held by an LPN or RN). I had 17 years of experience in my specialty at the time and he had but 2. I let it ride because I knew that his inexperience would show. I even tried to help him out. His inexperience showed, he grew frustrated, and he offered to step down. I was offered the position a few short months later. Sometimes you just have to take a step back and let things play out. I left that position to go on to better things 5 years later but I stayed on for a few weeks to train the new supervisor....that same male RN who left it to me. He was better prepared and was the best candidate for the position because he gained experience. There were plenty of BSN candidates (male and female) that applied from within and outside the company. As an ADN, he had more knowledge about the unit and position than the rest IMHO. So, isn't it also an "ism" when you just look into the candidate's book knowledge rather than experience?

Buyer beware, BSN · Oct 31, 2016

How interesting. A man is tired of "isms." Haven't suffered any racism? As a white male, you're in the most privileged class in the world. Of course you're "tired of isms."

I think I have just suffered ignorantism!

Zooey72 · Oct 31, 2016

Man that would really get my goad! That's a perfect example of cases I've seen. It's opened my eyes to things that really do happen on the job. Ten years ago I was ready to listen with all my eye rolls ready, but I was proven wrong time and again. Examples like The Commuter gave and your story show the reality of it.
Also, to Zooey's comment that maybe he got the promo to meet a criteria, that wouldn't be the case because he's not part of a protected class.

I really do not know what to make of your post. If you are saying "protected class" and mean it as an insult, by all means I agree with you. If you are honestly posting about how it couldn't happen... and you agree... that having a lady parts in a female dominated prof. the rules would not work the same - and that that is morally ok with you. WOW.

In a nutshell, you back discrimination as long as you are part of the group that gets an advantage from it. I was about to right a short novel on how wrong what you just said is (esp. in the context of you claiming victimhood), but I can sum it all up with your own words.

"Protected Class"... isn't that the definition of discrimination?

Not to mention, you are wrong. I received extra points for my member when it came to getting into nursing school. I am an A student, and didn't need it; but I got them anyway and I felt it was insulting. You on the other hand would say "You go girl" if some female could not perform in a male dominated prof. and got in anyway by virtue of her genitalia.

The hypocrisy is amazing.

TuesdaysChild · Oct 31, 2016

I really do not know what to make of your post. If you are saying "protected class" and mean it as an insult, by all means I agree with you. If you are honestly posting about how it couldn't happen... and you agree... that having a lady parts in a female dominated prof. the rules would not work the same - and that that is morally ok with you. WOW.
In a nutshell, you back discrimination as long as you are part of the group that gets an advantage from it. I was about to right a short novel on how wrong what you just said is (esp. in the context of you claiming victimhood), but I can sum it all up with your own words.
"Protected Class"... isn't that the definition of discrimination?
Not to mention, you are wrong. I received extra points for my member when it came to getting into nursing school. I am an A student, and didn't need it; but I got them anyway and I felt it was insulting. You on the other hand would say "You go girl" if some female could not perform in a male dominated prof. and got in anyway by virtue of her genitalia.
The hypocrisy is amazing.

*sidesteps the playground taunts*

I'm speaking from a legal perspective from years of experience in equal employment opportunity law. I have an actual rational basis for what I'm saying. You are just on a bender.

A "protected class" is a legal designation applied to classes that there has been clear and convincing evidence of systematic discrimination. A male working in a female-dominated profession doesn't de facto make "male" a protected class or imply discrimination towards males because there's no showing of systematic discrimination of males in female-dominated professions. Likewise, being a female in, say, engineering doesn't de facto make women a protected class in male-dominated fields but for the fact that there is clear and convincing evidence of systematic discrimination towards women in male-dominated fields.

Actually, the evidence for men in traditionally female fields shows otherwise. "Cooking" has historically been considered the woman's job, but who are all the most famous chefs? Men also have no problem rising to the top in fashion design and surpassing women in that field. And there's no evidence that men in the nursing profession are held back due to gender therefore there can be no policy or criteria for promoting men on the sole basis of being male. Quite frankly, even promoting a member of a protected class who blatantly refused to meet the required qualifications wouldn't fly in the realm of employment law. Candidates still have to be qualified for a role in order to invoke protected class promotions.

So what it comes down to is that the idea that he was promoted without qualifications to meet a criteria wouldn't be the case because such a policy cannot legally exist.

Zooey72 · Oct 31, 2016

I will get back to this later (busy), but you are dancing around my point.

Cooking, fashion, whatever. What evidence do you have, that especially in those fields that are reliant on customer satisfaction that there is discrimination? I guess all of the women WHO BUY THOSE PRODUCTS are sexists too (not all, I like to cook too).

It is a nice dance you are doing, but you can not use the phrase "protected class" in terms of equality.

Equality works both ways, you get no special rules. If you want special rules than you have self proclaimed yourself as one of the 'ists'.... Oh I am sorry "Protected classes".

And for the record, you really don't want to play the card of "Protected class is a legal term", because it screams of Jim Crow.

Finally, I really do hope (using your example) some female builds your home (engineer) who just squeaked by being a "Protected class". You deserve every bit of hardship that house will give you, but when the rain from leaks are falling on your head take solace in the fact that your home was built by a "protected class".

Ruby Vee, BSN · Oct 31, 2016

I will get back to this later (busy), but you are dancing around my point.
Cooking, fashion, whatever. What evidence do you have, that especially in those fields that are reliant on customer satisfaction that there is discrimination? I guess all of the women WHO BUY THOSE PRODUCTS are sexists too (not all, I like to cook too).
It is a nice dance you are doing, but you can not use the phrase "protected class" in terms of equality.
Equality works both ways, you get no special rules. If you want special rules than you have self proclaimed yourself as one of the 'ists'.... Oh I am sorry "Protected classes".
And for the record, you really don't want to play the card of "Protected class is a legal term", because it screams of Jim Crow.
Finally, I really do hope (using your example) some female builds your home (engineer) who just squeaked by being a "Protected class". You deserve every bit of hardship that house will give you, but when the rain from leaks are falling on your head take solace in the fact that your home was built by a "protected class".

I guess your having a member makes you smarter than or more knowledgable than someone with actual experience and education in employment law. Extra points for having a WHITE one.

TuesdaysChild · Oct 31, 2016

I will get back to this later (busy), but you are dancing around my point.
Cooking, fashion, whatever. What evidence do you have, that especially in those fields that are reliant on customer satisfaction that there is discrimination? I guess all of the women WHO BUY THOSE PRODUCTS are sexists too (not all, I like to cook too).
It is a nice dance you are doing, but you can not use the phrase "protected class" in terms of equality.
Equality works both ways, you get no special rules. If you want special rules than you have self proclaimed yourself as one of the 'ists'.... Oh I am sorry "Protected classes".
And for the record, you really don't want to play the card of "Protected class is a legal term", because it screams of Jim Crow.
Finally, I really do hope (using your example) some female builds your home (engineer) who just squeaked by being a "Protected class". You deserve every bit of hardship that house will give you, but when the rain from leaks are falling on your head take solace in the fact that your home was built by a "protected class".

It's like..... it's like I'm talking to my neice (she's 3, by the way). I can calmly state a simple fact (you can't play with the scissors because you're not old enough to use them) and she just throws herself on the floor and says I'm being mean.

The term "protected class" screams of Jim Crow? Tell that to the federal government, not me. I'm using the terminology as defined by SCOTUS and used in courtrooms across the country.

If you're going to respond further, as you indicated, please make sure it logically follows what I've said or else you're just wasting time (although it's entertaining). For instance, threatening me with a house built by an unqualified woman engineer who squeaked by because she's a female disregards the fact that I clearly stated candidates have to be qualified for positions in order to claim protected class discrimination.

Zooey72 · Nov 1, 2016

It's like..... it's like I'm talking to my neice (she's 3, by the way). I can calmly state a simple fact (you can't play with the scissors because you're not old enough to use them) and she just throws herself on the floor and says I'm being mean.
The term "protected class" screams of Jim Crow? Tell that to the federal government, not me. I'm using the terminology as defined by SCOTUS and used in courtrooms across the country.
If you're going to respond further, as you indicated, please make sure it logically follows what I've said or else you're just wasting time (although it's entertaining). For instance, threatening me with a house built by an unqualified woman engineer who squeaked by because she's a female disregards the fact that I clearly stated candidates have to be qualified for positions in order to claim protected class discrimination.

That was a pretty off the wall post. Would you like to go back through SCOTUS and it's history of defending Jim Crow laws? There is another phrase they throw around with that, and that is "institutional discrimination", which apparently is just fine with you as long as you run the institution.

Please though, use SCOTUS as your reasoning. While you are defending segregated schools, stealing of Indian land, and the internment of the Japanese give me the Constitutional reasoning behind it.

SCOTUS is made up of un-elected lawyers.

It would be one thing if you were saying "This is the law, I don't like it; but it is what it is". You are saying that the law is right, which is deplorable. AND, the law has not always followed the Constitution, which is what all of your 'logic' clearly points to. Hence your advocacy for Jim Crow.

You think skin color, genitalia, and where you choose to put that genitalia is grounds for preferential treatment. I do not.

Tacomaboy3 · Nov 1, 2016

Welcome to the battle of clever remarks, smart jabs and cunning insults. Who's got the bigger metaphorical member?

Sigh.

HouTx, BSN, MSN, EdD · Nov 1, 2016

YIKES! I thought for a while that I had accidentally clicked into a Fox news political "debate"..... sheesh.

Referring back to OP's original question, I believe that older new grads have a much more difficult job hunt than their younger colleagues. Patient care is a very physical job. The workload on a busy unit is exhausting. Hiring managers are definitely aware of this so they tend to shy away from older applicants in favor of younger (presumably more fit) job seekers. I advise older new grads to take actions to project a younger (high energy, physically fit) image to prospective employers. This may even mean a mini-makeover to hide grey hair and dressing in more fashionable, on-trend clothing.

Nursing isn't the only field in which this occurs. Family members in IT say it's worse. Older IT graduates are just disregarded as though there is a time limit - if you didn't go into IT in your 20's, you aren't even considered. And this is a field in which cognitive (rather than physical) ability is pretty much the only determinant of professional qualifications.

ItsThatJenGirl, CNA · Nov 1, 2016

I love the fact you suppose things about me. I never mentioned my race, but you assumed I was white. Maybe I am, maybe I am not; but what I will tell you is that my sister is black. (not that it should matter, but it does to people like you)
Thankfully, my sister and I grew up with parents smart enough not to raise their kids with "isms".
You are looking for an "ism" excuse for any failure you have. You need to grow up and be a person, instead of longing to be a victim. Or to put it another way, be an adult.
I honestly don't care about any specific thing about you, you could be an orange Eskimo from Timbuctoo. You prefer excuses to results, and THAT is what defines you.

Acknowledging that isms exist and having intelligent conversations about how to avoid them doesn't make me a victim.

Denying that they do exist is privilege in action.

OP - I doubt a new nurse is going to experience a whole lot of ageism. Like Ruby said, the ones that are going to experience ageism (IMO) are the older nurses who get paid more. There are a lot of people in my classes that are my age (37) or older. I've got the mother hen thing going on, it's nice.