Agency Nursing vs Staff Nursing

[Q.]

Hi All!

I am preparing to do a debate in my Nursing 510 course about agency vs staff nursing. It is a formal debate complete with PowerPoint presentation, etc. My team and I will be arguing against the usage of Agency nurses as a bandaid to the "real problem " (yet to be identified)

As a good debater should do, I am researching both sides so I can anticipate the other team's argument and refute it. I have several articles both from nursing journals as well as pop culture mags, however, I was looking for input from nurses who are either for or against as well to help me build my argument.

If there is anything you can offer, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Q.]

Actually, I am still in amazement at the amount of assuming that goes on here.

Do people really read entire threads or only the pieces they want? I don't get how anyone could have thought I wasn't a nurse. And Maura, this isn't at you - because obviously you weren't the only one.

Anyway, Moe, thanks for the words of support r/t school. I'm almost done with my paper, anyway.

[mattsmom81]

Perhaps because the attitude 'read' in many posts may seem more suggestive of an egocentric student heading to the ivory tower of academia vs a realistic-sounding nurse deep in the trenches? Just a thought, since the question was asked.

Some posts seem designed to stir up controversy, and I am disappointed this is occurring; as I recall the uproar over Greytnurse's admission that she posted to 'get a rise'.Just an observation.

[fadingyouth]

Originally posted by mattsmom81

Perhaps because the attitude seen in many posts is more suggestive of an egotistical student heading to the ivory tower of academia vs a realistic-sounding nurse deep in the trenches? Just a thought, since you asked.....

May I applaud your comment.

I did not expect that Susy would seriously think that I wished her to be "wishy-washy". My comment was simply to intone that not all agency nurses fall within the guidelines that her academic narrow-mindedness appears to suggest.

One must learn that success is not necessarily built upon the ladders of academia, but what is in the heart. The realities of life dealt with a common sense approach tend to better work and social environments.

A simple lesson was learned from an octogenarian with an 8th grade education. He was happy with his life and his accomplishemts for he never met a stranger and treated others as he wished to be treated. He had been able to speak with corporate heads and had been treated well. He had, as he told me, suceeded.

Keep that thought............. :zzzzz

[Stargazer]

Perhaps because the attitude 'read' in many posts may seem more suggestive of an egocentric student heading to the ivory tower of academia vs a realistic-sounding nurse deep in the trenches?

Wow. Just...wow. That is really, really uncalled for. And all the winkie smilies in the world don't negate the mean-spiritedness of that post.

Please go back and read Susy's first post. I took it, as I am sure it was meant, as a sincere request for info and opinions from other experienced nurses to help her with a school assignment. A very straightforward request. I've read this entire thread, and how and when and WHY that simple request for info, and what started out as a reasonable academic discussion, got twisted into something else escapes me.

"Academic narrowmindedness"? I truly don't get why some people on this board act like they're allergic to higher education. Why it's always played out as Us Against Them. The majority of folks who go for advanced nursing degrees already have clinical experience. Everyone I know with an advanced degree got it while continuing to work full time. There is no Them. It's just Us.

Since when is more knowledge a bad thing? Knowledge is power, folks. And I'm starting to see very clearly why nurses don't have any.

[mattsmom81]

My previous comment was quite straightforward and based on the assumption that someone here really DID want an answer to a question. Of course, I may be mistaken here, as some folks don't want to hear honest feedback unless it's sugarcoated.

When someone asks for 'whys' they may get answers they don't like. And folks that can't take the heat should stay out of the kitchen, IMHO.

[Q.]

Uncalled for is right. Amazing. Truly amazing.

Stargazer, it's pointless. No one reads the entire thread anymore, as evidenced by assuming I wasn't a nurse, though I wrote early on to Brownie about my experience with agency nurses and how I staff when I am in charge. And how when my floor changed needle systems, we had increased needle sticks as well due to unfamiliarity with the equipment. In fact, I'm sure more than half of the people didn't even realize this was a school project and assumed (again without reading) that the opinion my team HAD to defend was in fact, my opinion. I've stated my opinion in a couple threads above and refuse to repeat it.

You're right - it's not about US vs THEM. I am nurse working in the trenches who happens to be going to school because I want to TEACH. I don't see why because I chose that route, it becomes an issue.

Mattsmom, I've seen posts of yours where you express a desire to teach as well. When you find out that in order to teach you may need a MSN, should we scoff at you and call you narrow-minded because you are persuing your degree? Would that be fair?

The uncalled for hostility and obvious rude comments without even reading the whole thread is what is disturbing. For god's sake if you are going to comment, at least read the whole thread!

Anyway - adios. I got feedback from those I needed it from, and for that I thank you. Moe, I thank you for the small dialouge we had and I appreciate your well wishes. And Mattsmom, remember this attitude you hold of students because, if you really want to teach, one day YOU will be a student like I am.

[fadingyouth]

Stargazer: I did not state that education/knowledge is a "bad thing". The comment was directed at the philosophy that some educated souls possess--that is, that unless one has a number of degrees ( a paper trail) the others know less or nothing at all.

With advanced degrees and successful completion of courses comes a need to be able to teach and share those ideas with those among you. It may seem so simple to someone with an education, yet most difficult to comprehend for someone without. At no time does it( the lack) mean that that person is of lesser value or unable to learn.

Education accessed defines itself in a "smart man" when it is shared and handed down.

Keep trying.............

[Brownms46]

Originally posted by Susy K

Uncalled for is right. Amazing. Truly amazing.

Stargazer, it's pointless. No one reads the entire thread anymore, as evidenced by assuming I wasn't a nurse, though I wrote early on to Brownie about my experience with agency nurses and how I staff when I am in charge. And how when my floor changed needle systems, we had increased needle sticks as well due to unfamiliarity with the equipment. In fact, I'm sure more than half of the people didn't even realize this was a school project and assumed (again without reading) that the opinion my team HAD to defend was in fact, my opinion. I've stated my opinion in a couple threads above and refuse to repeat it.

You're right - it's not about US vs THEM. I am nurse working in the trenches who happens to be going to school because I want to TEACH. I don't see why because I chose that route, it becomes an issue.

Mattsmom, I've seen posts of yours where you express a desire to teach as well. When you find out that in order to teach you may need a MSN, should we scoff at you and call you narrow-minded because you are persuing your degree? Would that be fair?

The uncalled for hostility and obvious rude comments without even reading the whole thread is what is disturbing. For god's sake if you are going to comment, at least read the whole thread!

Anyway - adios. I got feedback from those I needed it from, and for that I thank you. Moe, I thank you for the small dialouge we had and I appreciate your well wishes. And Mattsmom, remember this attitude you hold of students because, if you really want to teach, one day YOU will be a student like I am.

Susy K

I have to be honest here...as I think that is the only way to approach this. Susy K...I know you're a nurse, that you work per diem in L&D...that you work in a clinic ...that you're going back to school...I know this..ok??

First I don't feel mattsmom was being hostile or rude. I must say that her statement was blunt....and a little stinging...but it was a fair assessment of how you come across sometimes.

Susy K...you have to think...why are these nurses writing the way they do....could it possibly have something to do with the way I coming across. Your answer to that question is that no one reads the whole thread. Well I have read the whole thread and have been "in it" since it began...so I took exception at your pointing out to me in a previous post that this was a "debate"! I knew it was a debate...and I couldn't figure out why.... you thought you needed to remind of this:confused:. But I chose to ignore it. And I probably never would have mentioned it...except to make the point now...that sometimes you do come across as someone not in the trenches. And your tendency to make blanket statement tends to rub others the wrong way...as your statement about not using agency at all. To me it was obvious that I wasn't responding to the topic of the debate...but to your own personal statements. So even though some may or may not read the entire thread...many times it is a certain post that is what gets to someone enough to make them respond...and they're responding to that particular post and not the whole thread.

And Stargazer....many of us aren't allergic to higher education....and I'm really bothered by that statement. I have been supported of Susy K in this debate thread. As I have said...I felt it was a worthy topic...and applauded her success. But that doesn't keep me from stating how I feel about statements she has made that were her own personal feelings about agency....that she has and continues to express.... not only in this thread but others. The nurses she is positing to now...are agency nurses...and what we are addressing is not the debate...but Susy K's own personal views! Please don't belittle this to just being everyone else is not chosing to read...as that is not the problem.

[Q.]

This is my personal view:

I do agree with the use of agency or travelers in certain situations: like when we had 3 full-timers out for maternity leave at the same time, etc etc. But I do not think I agree with using agency to regularly staff the floors to compensate for nurses leaving in droves because the pay stinks.

and this:

Again, my PERSONAL opinion, (not what I used for the debate) was that agency is being used inappropriately IN THAT rather than dealing with the reason why there are no staff nurses, the hospitals are using agency as a safety net rather than addressing the ROOT PROBLEM.

And this was the stance of my debate:

My opinion that I expressed here on this board has nothing to do with the debate and how it was presented. We didn't present the debate from the stance that agency doesn't get as involved as staff nurses, we presented it from the standpoint that agency shouldn't be used PERIOD.

That is why Brownie I felt you needed reminding that this was a debate, because it was this was the post that you responded to. If I misintrepreted, then I apologize.

But I think alot of people are confused about what the debate stance was, and what MY opinion was - hence the attacks.

I am not defending myself anymore. The debate is finished in my class and it was productive and we are all still friends; as far as I am concerned the debate is done here too.

[Brownms46]

Originally posted by Susy K

This is my personal view:

I do agree with the use of agency or travelers in certain situations: like when we had 3 full-timers out for maternity leave at the same time, etc etc. But I do not think I agree with using agency to regularly staff the floors to compensate for nurses leaving in droves because the pay stinks.

and this:

Again, my PERSONAL opinion, (not what I used for the debate) was that agency is being used inappropriately IN THAT rather than dealing with the reason why there are no staff nurses, the hospitals are using agency as a safety net rather than addressing the ROOT PROBLEM.

And this was the stance of my debate:

My opinion that I expressed here on this board has nothing to do with the debate and how it was presented. We didn't present the debate from the stance that agency doesn't get as involved as staff nurses, we presented it from the standpoint that agency shouldn't be used PERIOD.

That is why Brownie I felt you needed reminding that this was a debate, because it was this was the post that you responded to. If I misintrepreted, then I apologize.

But I think alot of people are confused about what the debate stance was, and what MY opinion was - hence the attacks.

I am not defending myself anymore. The debate is finished in my class and it was productive and we are all still friends; as far as I am concerned the debate is done here too. [/quote

Susy K,

I was never confused for even one min as that this thread was started to garner information for your debate....what I "think" confused peoole was that the stance you were given to debate was mirrored in your own personal views.

And I still say that no matter how much the powers that be address the root problem...until nurses decide to stop beating their help (agency) up...by dumping on them....all the enticement in the world won't keep staff from leaving. There will always be agency nurses..as long as "we" continue to "eat each other alive".. my personal opinion

As for the aploogy...I humbly accept...and thank you for being kind enough to offer In some ways I admire you Susy K...as there is a lot of determination in your spirit....but you and I still see things differently, and probably always will...but that is ok with me....as you're entitled to your views and I am entitled to mine..

I'm editing this after going back and reading the post I responded to...and I see why Susy K...you felt you needed to remind me it was a debate. I didn't FORGET it was a debate...just didn't read every word in the paragraph of the post.

But I still believe part of the confusion came from your personal views being interwoven into this thread. So no need for the apology...as your response was justified. Fair is fair!

[mattsmom81]

Susy, to paraphrase your own words, let me repeat that there is 'a lot of assuming going on here" ----on your part.

I have read this entire thread. I subscribe to MANY threads on this BB and have seen many of your posts. In some threads I have even found myself in agreement with you. Others I have not, and this is fine, we are all entitled to our opinion. BUT if a young nurse tends to come off repeatedly self righteous, sanctimonious, and know-it-allish...and more experienced nurses folks respond a bit negatively to that, should she really be surprised?

You post repeatedly about being misunderstood, and rage on how folks 'don't read all your posts' and this justifies your anger when responders point out perceptions to you....I answered your question as to my opinion of WHY folks might get a tad upset with you sometimes. And as usual, you responded back to ME with anger. This seems to be a recurring theme with all posters who disagree with you.

I will repeat myself here, but you seem (through multiple threads and multiple posts, not just THIS one) determined to stir the pot and then dodge responsibility when others respond with negative feedback.... But you sure did jump on Greytnurse for the same, didn't you?

If you choose not to hear what I am saying, I can't help that.

But you did ask why people 'misunderstand' you, and I offered a possible answer...

And please stop the ridiculous statements about me 'not respecting education' because this issue has nothing to do with education. This has to do with human relations and behavior.

You may be a fine young woman and nurse and it is possible you don't have insight as to how your posts come off to others sometimes. We all have bad days and we understand an occasional 'off' post. When a pattern develops though, its hard to ignore.

[SKM-NURSIEPOOH, BSN, RN]

ask susy's first post requested assistance from both points of views...whether one is an agency nurse or staff nurse. she simply asked for everyone's pro or con opinions & why as she would use the information gain here for her class debate.

with that said, i believe that the con opinions against not having agency nursing became quite passionate because those views came directly from non-agency nurses whom doesn't know what it's like to have worked agency...they can only assume what it must be like based on personal observations experienced at work. yes, some agency nurses do only get one hour orientation prior to a shift, but at the same time, some staff nurses don't or won't see to give them adequate orientation plus they'll give those agency nurses the harder cases...maybe not in a mean spirit...but to give the regular staff nurses some relief...even if it's for one night. but doing this will increase the stress level of that agency nurse as she goes from one place to the next...it seems that it's not right or fair that they be subjected to the harder cases...everywhere they go in order to give the regular staff relief for that night. example, if an agency nurse work five days a week & she bounces between three to four different places that week...is it fair that she/he should work at least 2x harder than the staff nurses because they want a lighter load??? is it fair that they get a half a** orientation & is expected to complete their assigned work in the allotted time period...usually with no further assistance from the staff nurses (sometime on purpose or sometimes not because they too are busy)??? it easy to make opinions regarding a topic, even when research has been done to get both sides, but one still can't understand until they've actually done it for themselves....jmho.

originally posted by stargazer ...please go back and read susy's first post. i took it, as i am sure it was meant, as a sincere request for info and opinions from other experienced nurses to help her with a school assignment. a very straightforward request. i've read this entire thread, and how and when and why that simple request for info, and what started out as a reasonable academic discussion, got twisted into something else escapes me.

"academic narrow-mindedness"? i truly don't get why some people on this board act like they're allergic to higher education. why it's always played out as us against them. the majority of folks who go for advanced nursing degrees already have clinical experience. everyone i know with an advanced degree got it while continuing to work full time. there is no them. it's just us.

since when is more knowledge a bad thing? knowledge is power, folks. and i'm starting to see very clearly why nurses don't have any.

stargazer, i don't think anyone is saying that further education is a bad thing...i believe the sentiment is that don't hide the opinions formed behind the academia program....again, jmho. perhaps this thread could be closed now...after all...susy's class debate is over, her debate's done, & she certainly doesn't need any further input at this time.