Decades ago when women were under-represented in allopathic medical schools the "medical community" got together and decided to make their medical school classes reflect the society in which they practice. (Affirmative action) The "medical community" has made great strides in this effort.
My question/curiosity/concern is why if RNs are presently comprised of only 6-7% men, and the "nursing community" is {really} interested in more men choosing a career in nursing then why don't nursing shcools do what medical schools chose to do DECADES ago and make their graduating classes reflect the society in which they practice? Hmmm...
Any thoughts or ideas please feel free to "ring in".
Exactly why I support Affirmative Action. On its face it seems like it is UNFAIR, but lets face facts, there is no fair system! Without Affirmatives Action, qualified and unqualified rich white kids would get into schools over poor minority kids. Oh, wait!! That still happens!!!
I have to ask, what about the poor "white" kids? Were you aware that there is a greater percentage of poor "whites" in this country than poor "blacks?" Affirmative Action will only make it harder for these poor "whites" which there are more of living in poverty than "blacks." That doesn't seem like a fair system to me.
Oddly, everyone is against AA but they don't fight to get rid of nepotism and other privileges.
I am against AA, but nepotism is not the same as racial, gender, age, etc discrimination. I think that if most people owned a business, they would surely hire a brother or daughter over a stranger. Part of the interview is to see if you are a good "fit" with the company. What better "fit" than someone that you know and love. Same goes for college Alumni. That's not discriminatory; it's giving a courtesy to a former student. The same goes for me. As a veteran, I get 5 points "preference." It's not about discrimination. I paid a due to this country and for that I get a "preference."
For those of you against AA are you against "White Privilege"? That still exists in our country. And no laws will ever get rid of it.
"White Privilege?" Don't believe in it! If it were real, I'd be against it. I could tell you about the times that my being "white" has been more of a hindrance than a privilege though. Being a poor "white" man has disqualified me from grants, programs, and other things that I really needed even though I may have been more disadvantaged than the minorities that received such aid. That is unfair no matter how one chooses to see it. And, unfortunately, I do not think any laws will ever get rid of that, even though they are on the books (ie: NO ONE shall be discriminated against based on RACE, gender, etc).
If that went away then I would no longer support AA because there would be no need. Until then, I refuse to go against it because I KNOW there is no way those of you against AA will ever fight to get rid of other privileges. You're not doing it now and you never will. Especially since so many benefit.
I am truly, truly sorry that you feel this way. I believe that we are more separated by economics than we are by "race." The poor "white" kid that lives in the "hood" next door to the poor "black" kid is in the SAME exact situation EXCEPT the poor "black" kid will have more programs and grants in order for him to get out of his living situation than the poor "white" kid next door. Why? Because of the perceived privilege of that "white" kid. Economics plays a HUGE part in all of our lives. We must understand that. A "white" doctor will no dought see a "black" doctor as more of an equal than me, a "white" cna. Why? Because of our socioeconomic backgrounds. Certainly, you can see this, right?
Specializes in ED, ICU, MS/MT, PCU, CM, House Sup, Frontline mgr.
I have to ask, what about the poor "white" kids? Were you aware that there is a greater percentage of poor "whites" in this country than poor "blacks?" Affirmative Action will only make it harder for these poor "whites" which there are more of living in poverty than "blacks." That doesn't seem like a fair system to me.
I heard this argument before. However, I went to college with very few poor whites (I do mean very few) who did not get a full ride scholarship I never even had a chance to apply too. In fact, the scholarship I am speaking of was an OUTSTANDING scholarship that was based on economics, grades, and potential.
Why did not not even apply? The scholarship was only offered to students attending certain schools. Schools with very minimal Blacks and Hispanics. So I am hesitant to agree with this argument.
Don't get me wrong, poor is poor. But some people still have an advantage due to skin color and tone. The perfect analogy I have heard of the public grade and secondary school system in our country is legalized American Apartheid! Modern day segregation would be an understatement.
I am against AA, but nepotism is not the same as racial, gender, age, etc discrimination. I think that if most people owned a business, they would surely hire a brother or daughter over a stranger. Part of the interview is to see if you are a good "fit" with the company. What better "fit" than someone that you know and love. Same goes for college Alumni. That's not discriminatory; it's giving a courtesy to a former student. The same goes for me. As a veteran, I get 5 points "preference." It's not about discrimination. I paid a due to this country and for that I get a "preference."
Nepotism does not include just small businesses. I am talking about when it affects you working in a bigger setting. Sibling gets hired who aren't qualified to do a job. I have had several unqualified bosses. And despite my educational level, work experience, and potential I have had no opportunities for promotions.
Furthermore, nepotism is another avenue for white privilege to exist. Many times bigger businesses will use it as an excuse to hire and the next thing you know the entire BOD or all of upper management is of one race. And people like you will argue comfort and do so without thinking prejudice. But the people who are doing it are doings so because they do not want others (non-whites) in those positions.
By the way, I am not against veteran points. I think non-vets should have points taken away! :wink2:
"White Privilege?" Don't believe in it! If it were real, I'd be against it.
Well, it is real in the US of A! The only place I have experienced it not being as BAD is the military. Sadly, one has to work in hazardous conditions and put his/her life on the line to actually feel like character and education matters!
I could tell you about the times that my being "white" has been more of a hindrance than a privilege though. Being a poor "white" man has disqualified me from grants, programs, and other things that I really needed even though I may have been more disadvantaged than the minorities that received such aid.
Really? I have never received this magical aid you speak of... I have never received grants whites did not have access too. I am aware that some organizations offer scholarships to particular minorities (similar to the scholarship offered to only whites attending certain schools I mentioned), but not many people get them. I have not received any! In my experience, being black and having an outstanding GPA and lots of potential is not 100% guarantee to land a scholarship from such organizations. The odds of getting them are a million to 1 many times. So do not worry, I do not have a privilege you don't have in some other area.
I am truly, truly sorry that you feel this way. I believe that we are more separated by economics than we are by "race."
Unfortunately, more AAs (as an example) are disproportionately poor in this country then our white brothers and sisters. So, if you are poor, then you are in the minority compared to other whites. It is a fact even the GOP admits is true.
The poor "white" kid that lives in the "hood" next door to the poor "black" kid is in the SAME exact situation EXCEPT the poor "black" kid will have more programs and grants in order for him to get out of his living situation than the poor "white" kid next door. Why? Because of the perceived privilege of that "white" kid.
I don't know where you get this perception but poor white kids qualify for grants. Federal aid is based on economics and not race. Welfare is the same. In fact, there are more poor whites on welfare and using federal aid programs then blacks in this country. However not disproportionately so. I worked in Social Work a long time and I had more white clients then I had black ones. So do not worry, poor whites are not without the same amount of help.
And yes, the white child growing up in an urban area will have the same disadvantages initially (only regrading schools and the dangers of his/her neighborhood). But if he/she were to gain an education or move into other aspects of society (even a job in a mail room of a big corporation), his/her white skin will open doors. He/she may not believe it and he/she may not want the privileges offered based on his/her skin, but he/she will receive the privilege. It is a disgusting truth about our country.
Many people who oppose AA argue as if AA is sooo powerful (such a threat) that economics should be the only factor. Plus, if AA is gone or race is no longer a factor, then everyone exists on a level playing field. However, this is not the case. White privilege exist and no law will ever change that. So, doing away with AA or changing AA will not do anything to benefit people. On the other hand, it will do a lot to hurt people who already lack so many opportunities to compete.
Economics plays a HUGE part in all of our lives. We must understand that. A "white" doctor will no dought see a "black" doctor as more of an equal than me, a "white" cna. Why? Because of our socioeconomic backgrounds. Certainly, you can see this, right?
I will use a doctor as an example, since you mention one. I know a doctor who has a doctorate in Pharmaceuticals and is an African American. Clients and patients always ask to speak to the doctor. When he shows up they ask again because they assume he is the technician. Despite the fact that he has his license and diploma prominently displayed by his picture on the wall and his name tag lists his title.
Yes, the doc I know of can live a nice lifestyle, but his black skin has people questioning his abilities, education etc. Not to mention, he has a hard time finding a job when he is out of work. I am doubtful his white counterparts have the same problems.
I suspect as a Nurse who has both a graduate degree and years of experience in health care, I will encounter patients and co-workers who think I do not have the education or abilities I have to do a good job. It is a fact of my life you will not experience throughout yours. In general people will not question your abilities or your knowledge. In fact they might assume you are a physician.
In any case, I am not going to crumble up and die... I will press on and continue to do my best to compete. Good luck to you. I enjoyed this conversation. At least you argued with some sense unlike some other posters. :wink2:
I heard this argument before. However, I went to college with very few poor whites (I do mean very few) who did not get a full ride scholarship I never even had a chance to apply too. In fact, the scholarship I am speaking of was an OUTSTANDING scholarship that was based on economics, grades, and potential. Why did not not even apply? The scholarship was only offered to students attending certain schools.
Schools with very minimal Blacks and Hispanics. So I am hesitant to agree with this argument.
So just so I understand it right, this scholarship was open to all "races", right? Yes, I know only for certain schools, but I bet there were "white" students going to the schools that were exempt from this scholarship, too. And so, they were not afforded this opportunity. Again, it is not about "race."
MBA2BRN said:
Don't get me wrong, poor is poor. But some people still have an advantage due to skin color and tone.
The perfect analogy I have heard of the public grade and secondary school system in our country is legalized American Apartheid! Modern day segregation would be an understatement.
I have heard this analogy, but disagree when you state it's "the perfect analogy." It is 2006 and we still "bus" students to schools out of their district in the name of fairness. In my area, we just redrew the district lines because a new school was built and, in the interest of fairness, they wanted equal minority representation in all schools. Let's not forget that with "no child left behind" if your child is in a failing school then the parent has the right to send their child to another school in the district. The government, OUR government believes that segregation is so bad that they go above and beyond in order to see to it that this does not happen. I know that you will disagree, but to me, when a child has to ride a bus for over an hour (when there is a school two miles from his house) or they redraw the lines so that "just white kids" don't end up going to the "new school", then I'd say that that IS caring about segregation. Another benefit of "no child left behind" is that it looks not only at schools as a whole, but also at "race." Why does that matter? Well, the schools can't just teach the "white" kids and "leave the minority students behind." You see, if a school's "white" students are doing better than any other school in the state, well, that doesn't matter if the minority students are not doing well. The school will still be considered failing. So, if they want increased funding then they MUST elevate the scores of the minority students. NOW THAT is powerful.
MBA2BRN said:
Nepotism does not include just small businesses. I am talking about when it affects you working in a bigger setting. Sibling gets hired who aren't qualified to do a job. I have had several unqualified bosses. And despite my educational level, work experience, and potential I have had no opportunities for promotions.
I've experienced the same thing. I still say that most people, if placed in a position where they could give an unqualified relative a job, then they will. Maybe you are different, but maybe you just haven't really thought about what you would do if you were the Chief Officer of the Parks Dept. and you have the authority to appoint a Crew supervisor. Your favorite Uncle Mike, who just lost his job, ask if there is anyway you can help him out. Now, I can honestly say that I know that there are some people out there that would tell Uncle Mike, "NO, you are not qualified!", and yes, maybe you are one of them, I'll take your word on that, BUT most people would say, "Sure Uncle Mike, I'm C.O. of the Parks Dept." Of course, what you are failing to mention is the fact that there are "blacks, whites, hispanics, etc" in charge of things and all play nepotism.
MBA2BRN said:
Furthermore, nepotism is another avenue for white privilege to exist. Many times bigger businesses will use it as an excuse to hire and the next thing you know the entire BOD or all of upper management is of one race. And people like you will argue comfort and do so without thinking prejudice. But the people who are doing it are doings so because they do not want others (non-whites) in those positions.
I really think this is where we "break down." You see, "race" is not important to me. Actually, I don't believe in "race." There is not any scientific proof that "race" exist, and there is quite a bit of proof that it does NOT exist. That being said, from my perspective, "race" is important to alot of "blacks." I understand why, but still disagree. One can not act like "race" is no big deal, but then embrace every aspect of "race" in their everyday life. If "race" is important to someone who is "black" then why shouldn't "race" be just that important to someone who is "white?" AGAIN, I don't think that it should be important to either "race", mainly because it does not exist. Even if it does exist, why put so much importance on it if you do not want it to be important? Speaking from my own experience, Growing up (80's,90's) all of my "white" peers were actively seeking the friendship/approval of the "black" students. They did not care about skin color; however, the "black" students that they wanted to be friends with often shunned them because of their "white" skin color. "Race" was very important to the "black" students, but not important to the "white" students. Yes, of course you still have your racist, but they are the exception and not the rule.
MBA2BRN said:
By the way, I am not against veteran points. I think non-vets should have points taken away!
Thank you!:wink2:
MBA2BRN said:
Well, it is real in the US of A! The only place I have experienced it not being as BAD is the military . Sadly, one has to work in hazardous conditions and put his/her life on the line to actually feel like character and education matters!
Actually, when I was in the Army, I was discriminated against. Every single one of my sarg's from team leader to first sarg. was "black." However, when the Equal Opportunity Officer came down to see if anyone felt discriminated against....He ONLY asked the "black" soldiers. Now I'm no rocket scientist, but shouldn't he have asked me if I felt discriminated against? And yes, certain soldiers were allowed to go to their rooms during the work day and drink beer and have fun while certain other soldiers were worked like dogs. I was told by a Hispanic sarg. that I had to be better than other soldiers because my last name is Spanish. He was very hard on me and always selected me for extra duties because I didn't speak spanish. Yes, he told me that and NO he was not kidding. Again, as a minority, "race" was important to him. Another thing, When I was in Bosnia, There were 8 "white" soldiers and one "black" soldier. Now, the "black" soldier always chose to separate himself. Why? I don't know.
He didn't think he fit in well? The funny thing is that he was the only one that EVERYBODY liked.
Between the 8 "white" guys, some of us got along some didn't. Another time, when I arrived in Germany, I was roomed with two "black" guys. We all got along, or so I thought. It turns out he didn't like "white" people. I didn't have a problem with him or his "color." He had a problem with mine. I had another friend ("black"). We would talk all the way to the chow hall, went through the line, and after he got his food, he went and sat with all the other "black" soldiers. So, after a while, I asked him, "why do you go to lunch with me, but then choose to sit with the "black" soldiers." He didn't have an answer other than he was comfortable. I told him that, he was not my "black" friend, to me he was my friend. However, those other "black" soldiers use to make fun of him and call him "white." There was not a "black" table. The "black" soldiers CHOSE to sit together. "White" soldiers did not have a problem with them and did not desire to separate from them. It was the "black" soldiers with the desire to separate. Again, they too would shun the "white" soldiers that dared intrude upon their territory. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Yes, there are racist "white" people out there, but it is NOT the majority. Some organizations want you to believe that it is a majority, but it is not.
MBA2BRN said:
Really? I have never received this magical aid you speak of... I have never received grants whites did not have access too. I am aware that some organizations offer scholarships to particular minorities (similar to the scholarship offered to only whites attending certain schools I mentioned), but not many people get them. I have not received any! In my experience, being black and having an outstanding GPA and lots of potential is not 100% guarantee to land a scholarship from such organizations. The odds of getting them are a million to 1 many times. So do not worry, I do not have a privilege you don't have in some other area.
We are not really talking about what you received or what I received. We are talking in general terms. The fact is there is NOT a scholarships for "white" only students. Yes there are ones for certain schools, but this is not what the problem in America is and minorities can attend any school that they want simply by moving to that school's district. The issue is, every scholarship that a "white" student applies to, a "black" student can, too, BUT a "white" student can NOT apply to every scholarship that a "black" student can. What does that mean...well, a "black" student has more scholarships that he/she can apply to and thus more opportunities. Most scholarships will not ask about race unless, of course, it is for "black" only students.
MBA2BRN said:
Unfortunately, more AAs (as an example) are disproportionately poor in this country then our white brothers and sisters. So, if you are poor, then you are in the minority compared to other whites. It is a fact even the GOP admits is true.
I agree there is a disproportion, but there are many reasons other than racism, segregation, etc. to explain why it is disproportionate. Yes, I am in the minority, but most "whites" are in the middle and for MANY this is even harder to seek an education. You don't have enough money to attend school, but you do not qualify for grants, programs, etc..because they say you "make too much money."
MBA2BRN said:
I don't know where you get this perception but poor white kids qualify for grants. Federal aid is based on economics and not race. Welfare is the same. In fact, there are more poor whites on welfare and using federal aid programs then blacks in this country. However not disproportionately so. I worked in Social Work a long time and I had more white clients then I had black ones. So do not worry, poor whites are not without the same amount of help.
I am not worried. I know "whites" can qualify for grants. I stated that the "black" student would have more programs (ways?) to get out of his/her situation. This is a fact. There are many opportunities set aside specifically to help minorities advance, if they choose to take advantage of them. In my nursing program, they announced that the "black" students could apply for a scholarship that the "white" students could not.
Right there, those "black" students can apply to all the scholarships that I can PLUS they can apply to ones like this that I can not AND they have ones just for women.
MBA2BRN said:
And yes, the white child growing up in an urban area will have the same disadvantages initially (only regrading schools and the dangers of his/her neighborhood). But if he/she were to gain an education or move into other aspects of society (even a job in a mail room of a big corporation), his/her white skin will open doors. He/she may not believe it and he/she may not want the privileges offered based on his/her skin, but he/she will receive the privilege. It is a disgusting truth about our country.
I agree there are some small minds that would give an edge to the "white" worker, but I believe that in MOST cases it is how he carries himself. If the "white" guy goes around speaking slang while the "black" worker speaks articulate and is always a professional then I am willing to put good money on the fact that the "black" guy gets the promotion. Why? Because it is more about character than it is about color.
MBA2BRN said:
Many people who oppose AA argue as if AA is sooo powerful (such a threat) that economics should be the only factor.
Plus, if AA is gone or race is no longer a factor, then everyone exists on a level playing field. However, this is not the case. White privilege exist and no law will ever change that. So, doing away with AA or changing AA will not do anything to benefit people. On the other hand, it will do a lot to hurt people who already lack so many opportunities to compete.
With AA/quotas, you only need to have a qualified minority apply. So, a less qualified minority can get the job over a more qualified "white." I am sorry, but that is not fair. I know some injustices were done in this country, but we should not further the injustice by taking it out on people who were not even around at the time. If we take away AA, we are still left with the justice system and MORE than enough lawyers droooooling to take down a company for racial discrimination. Let's punish those that discriminate not the the "white" guy that just wants to get a job and earn a living.
MBA2BRN said:
I will use a doctor as an example, since you mention one. I know a doctor who has a doctorate in Pharmaceuticals and is an African American. Clients and patients always ask to speak to the doctor. When he shows up they ask again because they assume he is the technician. Despite the fact that he has his license and diploma prominently displayed by his picture on the wall and his name tag lists his title.
There are too many factors that could explain this. Are they just checking to make sure he is the doctor. I've done the same thing with "white" doctors. Is it an elderly population? I will more than concede that the elderly population may not think he is a doctor. And yes, that saddens me! And by the way, I never look at the license/diploma on the wall.
MBA2BRN said:
Yes, the doc I know of can live a nice lifestyle, but his black skin has people questioning his abilities, education etc. Not to mention, he has a hard time finding a job when he is out of work. I am doubtful his white counterparts have the same problems.
Yes, "white" people do have a hard time finding jobs. And I believe, that when one puts so much importance on "race" then one probably sees many difficulties in life as being "because of theirrace." I'll give you an example. I had a supervisor. He was SORRY! He started off as a shipping/rec. clerk and the then Manager made him a supervisor. He later threatened the company with a racial discrimination suit if they fired him (he got word that they were going to fire him for POOR performance). He accused the Manager of being a racist. The same man that MADE him the supervisor over other qualified "white" workers. So, what did the company do? They fired the Manager! And started to document this supervisor's very poor performance so that there would be no dought that "race" was not the issue. A good man lost his job because of the fear of what a racial disc. lawsuit would do! Talk about fair!
MBA2BRN said:
I suspect as a Nurse who has both a graduate degree and years of experience in health care, I will encounterpatients and co-workers who think I do not have the education or abilities I have to do a good job. It is a fact of my life you will not experience throughout yours. In general people will not question your abilities or your knowledge. In fact they might assume you are a physician.
There are facts of my life that you would not experience, but we all have our own unique experiences.
I've been beat up for being "white." That's it. Just sitting on a bench and targeted for being "white" on the wrong bench. I deal with people all day long that think I have all these privileges and that I don't have to work hard for what I have. I've actually been told that on several occasions. For a long time, I chose not to go to school and life was hard. I chose to go to school and I know my life will be better. Not because "I'm white", but because I'll have an education. Education is really the key. NO ONE can deny anyone the right to it, but no one is going to give it to you.
MBA2BRN said:
In any case, I am not going to crumble up and die... I will press on and continue to do my best to compete.
Good luck to you. I enjoyed this conversation. At least you argued with some sense unlike some other posters.
I still hope that one day race is DE-emphasized! Only then, can we grow together. Even Dr. King wanted unity, true unity..."I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood." It's about togetherness. "Race" is a myth envisioned to separate and nothing more. And, it has worked. I don't call myself "white" any more than I intend to call myself a "male" nurse. Both are ridiculous and unnecessary.
MBA2BRN openly supports discrimination. Arguing with her will only give her more to go on. I suggest that we not respond to her.
I don't believe that we are arguing. She is explaining her point of view and I am showing her how someone on the "other side" feels about such things as AA. It's all about perspectives. The thing is, I have lived through discrimination. I get coined as "white," but what does that really mean. I have an Italian GrandMother, a Spainish GrandFather, a GrandMother that is Irish/English, and a GrandFather that is Native American. All of these ethnic backgrounds are very diverse from each other, but because of my skin tone...I am coined "white."
It all comes down to open dialogue. If we all keep our minds open and listen for the truth then we will hear it. I took Sociology just because I wanted to learn why minorities feel the way they do about various issues. Again, I can say that I know what "whites" talk about "behind doors" and it's not about "blacks/minorities." However, I have had a front row seat into many "black" peoples conversations and they make clear how they feel, even though it is misguided beliefs. Take my area for example, the racial demographics are pretty much 50/50 "black/white." One would think that this should be a utopia for all "races" that want to live in harmony, but it is far from it. We have a huge "race" problem here! Why? "Blacks" feel neglected and "whites" feel like no matter what they do, in the minds of the "blacks" in this area, they will always be slave owners. Another problem..."blacks" here always talk about how racist "white" people are here. The funny thing is...I can not tell you where the "white supremacy" building is (BECAUSE there is NOT one), but I can tell you exactly where the "BLACK SUPREMACY" building is located (yes, there actually is one here)! Yes, I know that there are "white" racist in this area, but the majority of "whites" here don't like them and they can't even be organized enough to have their own building; however, no one, "black" or "white" takes issue with the "black supremacy" building. To me, it's insulting. To others, it's necessary to combat "us racist white folk"! Faulty logic, but true non the less.
How do we make change? Through open dialogue. We need to educate everyone on the facts. Yes, slavery was horrible as well as wrong, but not all "blacks" were slaves. Some "blacks" owned slaves. Some "whites" were slaves. Many "whites" fought and died to free the slaves. Many "whites" began to free their slaves once they inheirited them from their parents. Many "whites" that inheirited printing presses, stopped printing their families' newspapers and started printing the abolition papers. Many "whites" have combated and tried to dismantle the KKK, as well as other "white" supremist groups. Many "whites" helped with the underground railroad. Not all slaves suffered at the hands of their merciless owner. The forced prison labor system was FAR more brutal than slavery and it involved using "whites" as well as "blacks." HOWEVER, most kids, "white" and "black" learn one thing..."white" people were bad and owned slaves. That is where their education on slavery ends. This is where the animosity comes into the picture. I believe that if the whole truth was taught, then "young blacks" would understand that they don't have to be wary of "whites", as I know so many are being taught. I think it is just as wrong for a "white" parent to teach their kids to be wary of "blacks" as it is for a "black" parent to teach their kids to be wary of "whites." It just fuels the animosity. I'd have a huge chip on my shoulder, too, if my parents always taught me that.."I have to watch out for whites and I had to be better just to get the same." And if I was fired, I'd probably say, "See, mom was right, racism still DOES exist in America" even though I was fired for always being late to work everyday. (Just for a FYI, I am NOT saying that all "blacks" have a chip on their shoulders, please do NOT say that I said that).
So, we must talk about such things in order to get ahead. I don't think
that MBA2RN sees AA as discrimination. Because of her experiences, she feels it is necessary. The problem is as long as we punish innocent "white" people, we are going to breed resentment among "whites" towards "blacks." I really don't want to go down that path. I still say that let's end AA and let the justice system take care of violators of anti-discriminatory laws. That is the only fair way to combat discrimination without turning "whites" against "blacks." I welcome MBA2RN's comments and she certainly has a right to her opinion. We may never agree, but hopefully she will gain a better understanding of where I'm coming from.
Since MBA2BRN supports AA, she believes in discrimination. I find her opinions personally offensive, and I know from experience how to handle this in the workplace: DON'T GET INVOLVED.
I understand why it is offensive to you. I am offended when people suggest that just because an area is predominately "white" means that minorities will not be welcomed. However, I also try to consider WHY people feel the way they do. I seek true unity. I know that it is possible, but only when we first drop the "labels." We must also educate people on why AA is unnecessary and not just tell them it's discrimination.
By the way, I thought that was an interesting article on Ward Connerly that you posted.
This is the purpose of conversations....you can argue without being deemed racist. Let's remember, regardless of how we feel personally, as nurses we sometimes need to view issues objectively...let's keep that in mind.
Healthcare professionals deal with every imaginable demographic in the world, let's try to conduct ourselves in a way that clients/patients stumbling onto this thread would not find completely unprofessional....
It is a shortage of INTEREST from males to become nurses in the first place.
No one is keeping guys out.
You can't artificially change something that just ain't there by AA.
Education to males in high school about nursing may help. I know two guys who went to school with both my sons who are in nursing school right now and I'm very proud of them.
Exactly why I support Affirmative Action. On its face it seems like it is UNFAIR, but lets face facts, there is no fair system! Without Affirmatives Action, qualified and unqualified rich white kids would get into schools over poor minority kids. Oh, wait!! That still happens!!!
Oddly, everyone is against AA but they don't fight to get rid of nepotism and other privileges. For those of you against AA are you against "White Privilege"? That still exists in our country. And no laws will ever get rid of it.
If that went away then I would no longer support AA because there would be no need. Until then, I refuse to go against it because I KNOW there is no way those of you against AA will ever fight to get rid of other privileges. You're not doing it now and you never will. Especially since so many benefit.
I have to admit that I never really heard of affirmative action (AA) for males for nursing before. This is the only area where I've heard of AA for men, not women or minorities. If we want to get rid of affirmative action for minorities in higher education, as many people believe, then we have to get rid of other preferences, like you mentioned, such as legacies (children of alumni), athletes, and children of celebrities and politicians.
Preferential admissions on the basis of gender is a bad idea. You end up with dumb male nurses and little tiny female firefighters and it's just ridiculous. If you can handle the work and make the prerequisites and any other requirements then fine.
Specializes in Accepted...Master's Entry Program, 2008!.
It isn't a shortage of male nurses.
It is a shortage of INTEREST from males to become nurses in the first place.
No one is keeping guys out.
You can't artificially change something that just ain't there by AA.
Education to males in high school about nursing may help. I know two guys who went to school with both my sons who are in nursing school right now and I'm very proud of them.
I'm against affirmative action and quotas.
steph
I have to agree with this. I think it sums it up perfectly. I do not think that any school is keeping men OUT. I certainly hope (as a male) that my gender doesn't do anything to help me get in. I don't want to be an unqualified nurse out on the floor. I want to be as prepared as every other student. If this means I'm disqualified for lack of preparation or inability, that's fine. Please don't keep me in, just because I'm male.
This is a little O/T. I think what compounds the problem is the perception of The Nurse. From what I have heard and/or read, I do not feel that nurses get the respect that they rightfully deserve. I'm not really sure how the medical establishment views nurses, but in general the uneducated public sees them as somehow inferior. (You are not a doctor? Why don't you get a real degree? etc, etc.). This lack of respect and rather skewed perspective is what I personally think keeps men out of the profession. I'm a little different since my father is a doctor and my mother a nurse. But it's just like the exchange in Meet the Parents. They thought Greg was joking when he said he was a nurse.
That stereotype needs to be squashed. No thanks to Hollywood for extending the stereotype.
As a male, I don't want any preferential treatment, period. I'm either qualified through my work and study, or not qualified. Regardless of gender.
Specializes in I got hurt and went to the ER once.
don't males rn's make more than their equivalent females counterparts anyways? (shh don't let anyone here that) i hope the women folk don't feel like they are being discriminated against.
i think that any aa action would be inappropriate as in my opinion the shortage of men in nursing is due to a lack of interest... and i think that's changing anyway. we should let the free market due it's thing.
Saying that men typically make more than women is a bit misleading. The fact is that on average, male nurses recieve higher wages because they tend to go into management and enter into higher paying specialities. I am sure that two staff nurses side by side with the same education and experience will make the same regardless of gender. I hope that is the case, but I may just be a Pollyanna.
jb2u, ASN, RN
863 Posts
I have to ask, what about the poor "white" kids? Were you aware that there is a greater percentage of poor "whites" in this country than poor "blacks?" Affirmative Action will only make it harder for these poor "whites" which there are more of living in poverty than "blacks." That doesn't seem like a fair system to me.
I am against AA, but nepotism is not the same as racial, gender, age, etc discrimination. I think that if most people owned a business, they would surely hire a brother or daughter over a stranger. Part of the interview is to see if you are a good "fit" with the company. What better "fit" than someone that you know and love. Same goes for college Alumni. That's not discriminatory; it's giving a courtesy to a former student. The same goes for me. As a veteran, I get 5 points "preference." It's not about discrimination. I paid a due to this country and for that I get a "preference."
"White Privilege?" Don't believe in it! If it were real, I'd be against it. I could tell you about the times that my being "white" has been more of a hindrance than a privilege though. Being a poor "white" man has disqualified me from grants, programs, and other things that I really needed even though I may have been more disadvantaged than the minorities that received such aid. That is unfair no matter how one chooses to see it. And, unfortunately, I do not think any laws will ever get rid of that, even though they are on the books (ie: NO ONE shall be discriminated against based on RACE, gender, etc).
I am truly, truly sorry that you feel this way. I believe that we are more separated by economics than we are by "race." The poor "white" kid that lives in the "hood" next door to the poor "black" kid is in the SAME exact situation EXCEPT the poor "black" kid will have more programs and grants in order for him to get out of his living situation than the poor "white" kid next door. Why? Because of the perceived privilege of that "white" kid. Economics plays a HUGE part in all of our lives. We must understand that. A "white" doctor will no dought see a "black" doctor as more of an equal than me, a "white" cna. Why? Because of our socioeconomic backgrounds. Certainly, you can see this, right?
Sincerely,
Jay