Advanced Nursing is often considered less rigorous than Medicine even though Nursing is it's own profession. Of course there's overlap. Do you think it's because nursing doesn't require the same rigorous premed perquisites?Osteopathic medicine use to be regarded the same well, but now it is equivalent to allopathic medicine. Do you think requiring the premed prerequisite curriculum (eg: PA, DO, MD prereqs) to gain entry to advanced practice will better prepare advanced practice nursing clinicians?
Just by that statement alone you are inferring that MD education is unnecessary and that NPs are just as good in many populations (whatever that means).
I do not want to spend the time to go to med school with residency so me and many RNs I know are opting for PA with 1 year residency. Thankfully then I can duck out of the political power grabbing mess and garner an education that I find valuable without the obsession of gaining autonomy and or being just as "good".
Actually you are misreading it because you don't understand what it means to be a practitioner, and you admit to it with your "whatever that means" response. Here's a great idea: when you don't understand something, ask for clarification, rather than just assuming the statement is wrong.
I have not seen not heard of anyone making a broad statement that MD education is unnecessary. In specific areas it may be more than required as there have been studies that demonstrate outcomes are comparable. Many MDs practice in a much different role than NPs, most notably the major surgical setting, and there are no studies out there to my knowledge that evaluate NP outcomes as this is outside of NP scope in this country. We can only speak to that which we have evidence of, and the vast majority of this is medical management and the vast majority from primary care management. This goes for PAs as well.
Good luck with PA school; I find it interesting that you are perusing a route you consider inferior to MD education and training (in PA school, or NP school if you change your mind) and I suspect you may feel differently when you graduate and begin practice, but I wish you the best of luck. Ironically they three RN to PAs I know are returning to NP school after ten years in practice because they eventually want autonomy.
None of the perspective-providers have really asked the question that is most interesting (at least to me and several MDs, PAs, and NPs I work with): how much does your academic education truly mean after your first years of practice.
Again, as a PRACTICING NP, someone who has finished NP school, I do tend to agree that NP school adds a lot of fluff where more rigorous science or diagnostics courses would prove more useful.
And policy should not be required for everyone, on that I disagree. I have no interest in politics and my goal is to be a clinician, and NP programs are supposed to churn out providers, not lobbyists.
My NP program had 4 useful classes of the core classes I found helpful: pharm, patho, health assessment, and my elective sports med class. I did not learn anything ground breaking or changing from my BSN education in research, policy, motivational interviewing, or theory classes.
You aren't alone in feeling this way. My question to this would be was this due to the quality and curriculum of your particular program or generalizable to all NP programs? Do your classmates feel the same way? And honestly if you feel like you had only 4 useful courses your NP program let you down.
My background and education is atypical as well, I appreciate that. My NP programs had skills workshops through out the program where small groups were schedule outside of class time to take small-group lectures with physicians, NPs, and PAs on topics like suturing, diagnostic imaging, liver panels, anemia work ups, orthopedic exams and interventions, GYN exams, childbirth, advanced 12-lead interpretation, etc. I am very fortunate for this and I agree that NP education needs to be standardized and these and similar should be required. I admit that it's hard for me to deprecate my positive experience from programs that do things....less thoroughly.
We disagree about health policy, but that's fine. I don't have anything to do with policy or advocacy other than quarterly meetings that are more of a networking thing for me, though I do write letters to my state reps from time to time. I think on the whole it is good for the profession if not good for the individual.
And for the records, I actually agree about DNP curriculum, as mine has been disappointingly lacking in the clinical mastery I was expecting, it's basically a PhD. It helps practice but not like I expected originally.
I get far more from attending CME workshops in clinical practice.
This Case Westerns Post-master DNP program...Note this is a clinical degree NOT a PhD
"Note," also, that this is a post-master's program, for people who are already practicing NPs and have already completed the clinical education considered necessary/appropriate for NP practice, comparable to the BSN-completion programs that include little or no clinical content because the students in these programs are already practicing RNs who have already completed the clinical education necessary to enter practice.
Specializes in ACNP-BC, Adult Critical Care, Cardiology.
Actually, there's not much difference between the Post-master's DNP and the BSN to DNP in terms of clinical component in many programs I've looked at. These programs simply added the Post-Master's courses to the existing MS/MSN they once offered and called it DNP. I suspect that the focus of the DNP has become too "leadership and health policy expert" and these "kids" interested in the provider role the NP offers are not at the level of maturity yet to venture into that aspect of advanced practice. For that reason, I think the MS/MSN should not be phased out and the DNP should be left as an option to those who do need that degree.
Just by that statement alone you are inferring that MD education is unnecessary and that NPs are just as good in many populations (whatever that means). I work with all providers as well as with many floor nurses who are also NPs and I am VERY aware of capabilities and skill levels of all. I read their notes, watch their assessments and critique their plans of care based off of my experience and knowledge base.
Why am I here? To bother you or people like you who will defend NP education to the bitter end even if it and it's loose band of governing bodies are sink faster than the Titanic with strong lobbying groups acting as the tether to keep it afloat.
I seriously wanted to be an NP after school but I can't justify it with the current state of its education standardization and the insanity of it's lobbying/accrediting groups. I do not want to spend the time to go to med school with residency so me and many RNs I know are opting for PA with 1 year residency. Thankfully then I can duck out of the political power grabbing mess and garner an education that I find valuable without the obsession of gaining autonomy and or being just as "good".
Actually, I know of no NPs like the ones you speak up. Perhaps if you explore it further you'll find it's a forum generated craze. And you don't have to worry about the NP ship sinking. Perhaps you can also get in with the other PA students I precept.
Internationally known neurosurgeon on trip in Peruvian jungle talking with Shaman:
Neurosurgeon: And what do you do?
Shaman: Well doctor, I have my flock of Lamas and I raise a little bit of corn and I do a little bit of healing. What do you do, doctor?
Neurosurgeon: I can cut open a man’s head and cut through the bone and pull out a tumor the size of a walnut, and throw it away and then sew their head back up and that man will live. Can you do that?
Shaman: No doctor, I can’t do that.
Neurosurgeon: Well, what do you do then?
Shaman: Well doctor, if someone dies and it’s not their time yet, I can follow their soul through the first, the second and the third level of the spirit world and right before they arrive back home I can catch it the way one catches a butterfly and bring it back and blow it back into them and they will live. Can you do that?
BostonFNP, APRN
2 Articles; 5,584 Posts
Actually you are misreading it because you don't understand what it means to be a practitioner, and you admit to it with your "whatever that means" response. Here's a great idea: when you don't understand something, ask for clarification, rather than just assuming the statement is wrong.
I have not seen not heard of anyone making a broad statement that MD education is unnecessary. In specific areas it may be more than required as there have been studies that demonstrate outcomes are comparable. Many MDs practice in a much different role than NPs, most notably the major surgical setting, and there are no studies out there to my knowledge that evaluate NP outcomes as this is outside of NP scope in this country. We can only speak to that which we have evidence of, and the vast majority of this is medical management and the vast majority from primary care management. This goes for PAs as well.
Good luck with PA school; I find it interesting that you are perusing a route you consider inferior to MD education and training (in PA school, or NP school if you change your mind) and I suspect you may feel differently when you graduate and begin practice, but I wish you the best of luck. Ironically they three RN to PAs I know are returning to NP school after ten years in practice because they eventually want autonomy.
None of the perspective-providers have really asked the question that is most interesting (at least to me and several MDs, PAs, and NPs I work with): how much does your academic education truly mean after your first years of practice.