ADN's being pushed out

[MSN Student]

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

[BostonFNP, APRN]

A little reading comprehension here: I said as soon as it's sent to me I will post it.

Ah yes the way most legitimate research studies are published: via an anonymous poster on a social website. We'll keep holding our breath for you to enlighten us with the breakthrough data.

You've been trumpeting this study for the last 3 years. The only information you've ever offered was that derived from the Aiken study. When someone above asked you to post data showing differences between ADNs and BSNs, all you offered was Aiken, Aiken, Aiken and Aiken.

There are plenty of other studies out there, both nationally and internationally. She is a leading researcher on the topic, however, I and not offering the viewpoint of a single author, but rather the sum of the extant data on the topic.

Just because multiple studies support the same outcome doesn't mean they are "derived" from each other. That is your bias convincing you otherwise.

When asked to interviewed, the author of the study declined.

Interviewed by whom? A reputable scientific mind or journalist? Or a random blogger? I decline interviews several times a month from random sources.

And they did so because they knew they couldn't defend it outside of their circle who supported the predetermined conclusions for their own gain. You talk of the tip of the iceberg; the only iceberg you've been able to float was Aiken. And that one is melting.

Or she and the other authors were simply too busy to acknowledge the conspiracy theorist in another inane debate about a witch hunt? Please show us a link to any study refuting one of the Aiken studies if that "iceberg is melting"? How about all the non-Aiken studies?

When analyzing a so-called study, I look at three things: Who conducted it, who backed it and who stands to benefit from its conclusions. The answers to those 3 questions have been made clear.

You have never demonstrated that you have any expertise or experience in "analyzing" a study or than posting hearsay and conspiracy theory. Prove me wrong. Cite some sources.

Think outside the university box, then I'll converse with you again.

The "university box" or the "scientific community". Please don't feel obligated to converse with me at all unless you have some data to show to back up your ramblings. Perhaps if you posted some data some people would take your posts seriously outside of hearsay.

[JustMeRN]

Ok, I have spent the last several days reading through 51 pages and 2 years of comments on this thread before I commented. Phew!

I am a nurse that jumped ship when the threat of termination was handed down. I have been a nurse for 15 years this coming June. I have an ASN from a local community college. I had always thought I would eventually get a bsn, then I got married, and had kids, and my priorities changed. I had been with one hospital system for 13 years, 11 on a medsurg / ortho floor, and 3 years in an outpatient department. I always thought that I would stay there until I retired. I suppose in hindsight that was a false hope. In my time there I witnessed 2 rounds of layoffs, and it was always the senior most nurses who got their walking papers, followed by an influx of bright and shiny new nurses a couple of months later. Anyway, about 2 years ago now the rumblings about only wanting BSN nurses started. It quickly came down from management that the expectation would be for all RN's to hold a BSN or higher by 2020 or we would be terminated.

At first everyone thought it was an empty threat. But the management continued to repeat the edict, and heap on the pressure. I spoke to my supervisor who said without a doubt I would be terminated if I did not comply. Now, I have 2 young kids, I chose to work only per diem when they came along. Being home with them was what was best for them, was best for me, and was most affordable. I don't work full time, I didn't make enough money for a higher degree to make financial sense for me. We are very debt averse, and I absolutely refuse to go into significant debt for a degree that gives me no financial return. I had a supervisor who kept insisting I should just take out loans. The school recommended by the hospital would have cost me $35,000+. This is the special discount rate. He couldn't understand why that was not an affordable option for me.

So, 8 months ago I left. I took a job in Home Health, because thats what I could get (turns out I love it more than I could have imagined).

Now I have decided to go back for my BSN. But there are 2 huge factors that made it different this time. I found a school that is 100% online, and affordable. It is run on a competency based model, so if I know as much as I think I do, I can cruise through the classes at an accelerated pace. I have a goal to be done in 1 year at a cost of around $6000. I can afford this without needing to go into debt. I see the writing on the wall. I understand the reality is that if I want to be employed, if I want to have options, I need to have a BSN. Wether or not I agree with that is moot.

So, that is the face of this debate. People like me.

BostonFNP, you say repeatedly you don't mean to offend people, but some of the things you say are offensive. You show an utter lack of understanding that people have lives, and commitments outside of nursing. You seem to think that choosing not to go into massive debt for a degree that offers no financial reward is somehow lazy or selfish. You lack understanding that a large majority of nurses are women. Many woman are tasked with primary care taking responsibility in their families. You said yourself your wife only works part time, and is able to be with your son the rest of the time. Thats fantastic. What if your wife were an adn nurse? Would you feel so strongly that she should go back to school when she has small children at home that she has made a priority? How about if that education was going to cost you $35,000, and would not increase her earning?

You also seem to be of the mindset that nurses should be altruistic. That we should be willing to pay high prices and sacrifice our home and family time for an education that might improve patient outcomes. That we should be willing to take on massive loans, because what is best for the patient should always come first. I am all for being the best nurse I can be, but I can not be effective for anybody with my personal life in turmoil because I put my profession before my family. That is something I can not and will not do. If that makes me lazy or selfish, so be it. Maybe to you I am not cut out to be a nurse, since I absolutely do not agree that I should be willing to put my profession and my patients before myself and my family. A work life balance is crucial in nursing, I do not for one second believe making personal sacrifice that create financial and emotional hardships makes one a superior nurse.

I am not opposed to continuing education. I am opposed to the notion that the hierarchy of nursing rests solely on the type of degree you have. I am opposed to the idea we should be expected to take on sometimes massive student debt, with no financial incentive. We should do it because it's what's best for the patient. Management seems to be latching onto this as a way to improve patient outcomes because it won't cost them a dime. Increasing staffing, providing appropriate and necessary continuing educational opportunities, providing necessary equipment and supplies, that would all cost money.

[avengingspirit1]

Ah yes the way most legitimate research studies are published: via an anonymous poster on a social website. We'll keep holding our breath for you to enlighten us with the breakthrough data.

There are plenty of other studies out there, both nationally and internationally. She is a leading researcher on the topic, however, I and not offering the viewpoint of a single author, but rather the sum of the extant data on the topic.

Just because multiple studies support the same outcome doesn't mean they are "derived" from each other. That is your bias convincing you otherwise.

Interviewed by whom? A reputable scientific mind or journalist? Or a random blogger? I decline interviews several times a month from random sources.

Or she and the other authors were simply too busy to acknowledge the conspiracy theorist in another inane debate about a witch hunt? Please show us a link to any study refuting one of the Aiken studies if that "iceberg is melting"? How about all the non-Aiken studies?

You have never demonstrated that you have any expertise or experience in "analyzing" a study or than posting hearsay and conspiracy theory. Prove me wrong. Cite some sources.

The "university box" or the "scientific community". Please don't feel obligated to converse with me at all unless you have some data to show to back up your ramblings. Perhaps if you posted some data some people would take your posts seriously outside of hearsay.

For the last two years I've been going back and forth with you. I have sent you websites along with other forms of proof that the BSN push is purely money driven. You continuously brush them off because they don't fit into your narrative. You prove the last sentence of my April 20 post. It is obvious you have some of affiliation with the university system or even with Aiken herself. Whenever someone offers a contrary point of view you're always right there to try to refute it with the same information you've used for the last two years. I find your postings somewhat smug. And knowing that just getting into doctoral programs has less to do with academic merit and more to do with having the right connections makes the smugness all that more meaningless. But that's OK. All nurses I have spoken know the the truth about the BSN push. It's why there will never be a groundswell of support for it.

I have spoken the truth and you along with the rest of the academic elitists know it; otherwise people like you wouldn't be trying to refute here.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

BostonFNP, you say repeatedly you don't mean to offend people, but some of the things you say are offensive. You show an utter lack of understanding that people have lives, and commitments outside of nursing. You seem to think that choosing not to go into massive debt for a degree that offers no financial reward is somehow lazy or selfish. You lack understanding that a large majority of nurses are women. Many woman are tasked with primary care taking responsibility in their families. You said yourself your wife only works part time, and is able to be with your son the rest of the time. Thats fantastic. What if your wife were an adn nurse? Would you feel so strongly that she should go back to school when she has small children at home that she has made a priority? How about if that education was going to cost you $35,000, and would not increase her earning?

Please, quote a post where I stated that ADNs are lazy or selfish. I am not here contributing to this post to make friends, as crass as that may sound. I am here to discuss the future of the profession based on the extant scientific literature. I am sorry if that make you feel lazy. I absolutely understand that most nurses are women; I refuse to let that be an excuse for under-education and under-investment. Should female physicians be required less schooling? Female lawyers? Female social workers? Everyone needs to make sacrifices, and if the evidence supports it, nursing (as a profession) should as well. Patients care about outcomes not the circumstances justifying them. If it was your family member would you want them cared for by the person with the best outcomes or the person with the life-story that justified significantly worse outcomes?

My wife works in academia and has a doctorate degree se is not financially rewareded for if it makes you feel better.

You also seem to be of the mindset that nurses should be altruistic. That we should be willing to pay high prices and sacrifice our home and family time for an education that might improve patient outcomes. That we should be willing to take on massive loans, because what is best for the patient should always come first. I am all for being the best nurse I can be, but I can not be effective for anybody with my personal life in turmoil because I put my profession before my family. That is something I can not and will not do. If that makes me lazy or selfish, so be it. Maybe to you I am not cut out to be a nurse, since I absolutely do not agree that I should be willing to put my profession and my patients before myself and my family. A work life balance is crucial in nursing, I do not for one second believe making personal sacrifice that create financial and emotional hardships makes one a superior nurse.

So you admit you are being "lazy" or "selfish"? Then why blame me. it has nothing to do with altrusim. You are thinking about this issue as it affects you not as a professional issue. Change your frame of reference. do you want the profession being the best it can be? Or the best it can be with little effort/investment? If you chose to put your family and finances about that of your patients that is your choice and your prerogative, just don't assume that's what is best for your profession.

I am not opposed to continuing education. I am opposed to the notion that the hierarchy of nursing rests solely on the type of degree you have. I am opposed to the idea we should be expected to take on sometimes massive student debt, with no financial incentive. We should do it because it's what's best for the patient.

Yet when the data shows what is "best for the patient" you decide its not what is best for you. If you want to do what is bets for the patient, what does the data tell you?

For the record, the online ADN-BSN diploma mills are simply exploiting the data and market, and they need to be abolished.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

For the last two years I've been going back and forth with you. I have sent you websites along with other forms of proof that the BSN push is purely money driven. You continuously brush them off because they don't fit into your narrative. You prove the last sentence of my April 20 post. It is obvious you have some of affiliation with the university system or even with Aiken herself. Whenever someone offers a contrary point of view you're always right there to try to refute it with the same information you've used for the last two years. I find your postings somewhat smug. And knowing that just getting into doctoral programs has less to do with academic merit and more to do with having the right connections makes the smugness all that more meaningless. But that's OK. All nurses I have spoken know the the truth about the BSN push. It's why there will never be a groundswell of support for it.

I have spoken the truth and you along with the rest of the academic elitists know it; otherwise people like you wouldn't be trying to refute here.

You haven't been "going back and forth". You have posted the same conspiracy theory pseudoscience and have never been able to produce any reputable sources/data in response to peer-reviewed published studies. Instead you post about anonymous sources and websites and blogs. That is not "back and forth" in any sort f meaningful scientific sense.

Yes I must be in cahoots. Save for the fact i don't work as an RN. I don't teach as an RN. I don't work in hospital administration. I have zero vested interest in the agenda you think there is a conspiracy pushing.

Yes. All the nurses you have "spoken to" about "the truth" but are anonymous. Wonder if these nurses have a vested interest in promoting the status quo....

Please, again, cite your sources.

[TiffyRN, BSN, PhD]

Would you feel so strongly that she should go back to school when she has small children at home that she has made a priority?

No problem with people making their kids their priority. Just own it. See my postings on much exaggeration of the gender pay gap which is likely due to women exiting the work environment to have and raise kids. Fantastic, really (not being sarcastic). There is no higher calling than to raise good kids.

But since you are a mom who obviously (once more, not being sarcastic) cares deeply for her children. What if your school starting mandating hiring of only certified teachers, something that has happened locally. Would you want to hear all the rhetoric about how hard it was for teachers to go back to school and get that certification. How about when the un-certified teachers failed to produce anything but opinion pieces on the effectiveness levels of certified versus non-certified? How about make it ok for the teachers who had really rough circumstances. Would that make it ok? Would you want to have less educated teachers teaching your kids because all the research supporting it was written by academicians and is obviously slanted?

In my mind, it's like so much other anti-science stuff we hear out there (on the great wide web). Can't trust the vaccine research because if it's not directly funded by pharmaceutical companies, then it's funded by people who hang out with pharmaceutical companies, or use pharmaceutical products. Can't trust the research on climate change because those researchers are in bed with the alternative fuel people, or they are in academia and want more people to go to college and learn how to save the earth's resources, or something like that. . . Can't trust whomever is on the wrong side of my opinion basically.

[redhead_NURSE98!, ADN, BSN]

Please, quote a post where I stated that ADNs are lazy or selfish. I am not here contributing to this post to make friends, as crass as that may sound. I am here to discuss the future of the profession based on the extant scientific literature. I am sorry if that make you feel lazy. I absolutely understand that most nurses are women; I refuse to let that be an excuse for under-education and under-investment. Should female physicians be required less schooling? Female lawyers? Female social workers? Everyone needs to make sacrifices, and if the evidence supports it, nursing (as a profession) should as well. Patients care about outcomes not the circumstances justifying them. If it was your family member would you want them cared for by the person with the best outcomes or the person with the life-story that justified significantly worse outcomes?

My wife works in academia and has a doctorate degree se is not financially rewareded for if it makes you feel better.

So you admit you are being "lazy" or "selfish"? Then why blame me. it has nothing to do with altrusim. You are thinking about this issue as it affects you not as a professional issue. Change your frame of reference. do you want the profession being the best it can be? Or the best it can be with little effort/investment? If you chose to put your family and finances about that of your patients that is your choice and your prerogative, just don't assume that's what is best for your profession.

Yet when the data shows what is "best for the patient" you decide its not what is best for you. If you want to do what is bets for the patient, what does the data tell you?

For the record, the online ADN-BSN diploma mills are simply exploiting the data and market, and they need to be abolished.

Did you hear that, folks? We're undereducated, lazy and selfish. Good thing I'm goose-stepping my way to my BSN as we speak! Fall in, you lazy undereducated fools! lol

[TiffyRN, BSN, PhD]

We now know that they based their recommendation for 80% of RNS to have a minimum of a BSN by 2020 on just the Aiken study; which was never replicated and was carried out by simply using the data for an earlier study about staffing levels and mortality and copying it onto the template for this study. QUOTE]

Remember that all the hospitals stupid enough to change nurse hiring policy based on just one flawed piece of unscientific propaganda found themselves near the bottom of the patient satisfaction score list. QUOTE]

First of all, are you really jumping on the bandwagon that patient satisfaction scores are a significant measure of quality? I'm still not ready to offer an evidence-based answer to that but I'm sure I've seen research questioning that criterion as a legitimate measure of quality healthcare.

Now, I have read you stating over and over that the only BSN outcome data out there is from Aiken and associates and I just know that isn't true. Took me trying to find an excuse to stop studying for my advanced stats final tomorrow to look up a couple for you to peruse. If you don't have access, sorry, one of the benefits of paying thousands of dollars for an advanced degree (which thankfully, my "worthless" Magnet hospital is helping out significantly with).

Ok, first study without Aiken or even American hospitals involved:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2648.2006.04084.x/full

I mean, why does Canada even care? They already have BSN as entry level. But wait, they did have an author named Linda, so she was probably inappropriately influenced by that association.

Another Canadian study:

The Impact of Hospital Nursing Characteristics on 30‐Day Mor... : Nursing Research

I will admit they were in collaboration with Aiken's international project, but it was a different data set, different country, different authors.

This one here's pretty cool, they tracked actual nurse education to actual patients, cause it could be confounding just to measure hospital outcomes to overall hospital nurse education. This went to the individual nurse. No Aiken in sight, study out of Michigan. Data set was collected in 2011 on 10,000 patients. I guess they could be lying about that. That's always possible. Bet they've read Aiken's studies and probably met her at conferences. . . which obviously contaminated their views.

Economic Evaluation of the 80% Baccalaureate Nurse Workforce... : Medical Care

When analyzing a so-called study, I look at three things: Who conducted it, who backed it and who stands to benefit from its conclusions. The answers to those 3 questions have been made clear.

I fully support this statement. The problem is you are asking us to discount any research that comes from people who have more than an BSN, maybe even ADN? I just . . . I don't know how legitimate research is going to get done unless a bunch of really responsible self-educated people undertake it and I'm just not trusting enough to believe they've educated themselves enough without some certification (like an advanced degree). Sorry, not willing.

[nursel56]

I've stepped out of the general Aiken debate, and I'm all for education 100%. I do feel those who state there is absolutely no political agenda involved in the "patient outcomes" debate is not doing due diligence in evaluating the issue. Politics permeate science to varying degrees in many disciplines.

Why was the study done in 2003? Why did Ms Aiken decide to use data from a study of nurse staffing and recycle it into her outcomes study? Linda Aiken, the Institute of Medicine and associated academic entities are outspoken proponents of BSN- entry-to-practice.

The ANA Position Paper of 50 years ago never gained a foothold until recently with a surplus of nurses making such a policy feasible without massive staffing shortfalls as a consequence.

My opinion, most likely the outcomes study was connected to a giant setback in the form of the 2003 North Dakota repeal of the only BSN ETP law ever enacted. Linda Aiken stated in the Introduction to the 2003 study that her discovery that higher staffing levels are safer for patients that:

"These findings also raise questions about whether characteristics of the hospital RN workforce other than ratios of nurses to patients are important in achieving excellent patient outcomes."

When you consider which characteristic was chosen to the exclusion of all others -- it just happens to be the one that saw the only successful campaign repealed. When an author who researched and wrote about the factors involved in that failure, he cited essentially political issues.

I don't want to argue the research, but the original study is fascinating reading, especially for the careful language, the way they collected their data (self-selected survey responses to postcards asking questions related to the staffing study) and how many factors they corrected for due to insufficient actual data.

I haven't delved too deeply in more recent outcomes studies, except to say when we're talking about BSNs and outcomes in countries outside the USA, it's a good idea to research the differences between each system. They are not all the same.

Educational Levels of Hospital Nurses and Surgical Patient Mortality

[crossfitnurse]

😒....

[JustMeRN]

Please, quote a post where I stated that ADNs are lazy or selfish. I am not here contributing to this post to make friends, as crass as that may sound. I am here to discuss the future of the profession based on the extant scientific literature. I am sorry if that make you feel lazy. I absolutely understand that most nurses are women; I refuse to let that be an excuse for under-education and under-investment. Should female physicians be required less schooling? Female lawyers? Female social workers? Everyone needs to make sacrifices, and if the evidence supports it, nursing (as a profession) should as well. Patients care about outcomes not the circumstances justifying them. If it was your family member would you want them cared for by the person with the best outcomes or the person with the life-story that justified significantly worse outcomes?

My wife works in academia and has a doctorate degree se is not financially rewareded for if it makes you feel better.

So you admit you are being "lazy" or "selfish"? Then why blame me. it has nothing to do with altrusim. You are thinking about this issue as it affects you not as a professional issue. Change your frame of reference. do you want the profession being the best it can be? Or the best it can be with little effort/investment? If you chose to put your family and finances about that of your patients that is your choice and your prerogative, just don't assume that's what is best for your profession.

Yet when the data shows what is "best for the patient" you decide its not what is best for you. If you want to do what is bets for the patient, what does the data tell you?

For the record, the online ADN-BSN diploma mills are simply exploiting the data and market, and they need to be abolished.

you have absolutly made my point. I never said I felt lazy or selfish. I said you indicated nurses like me are lazy or selfish. You response makes that pretty clear.

Of course all physicians, female or not, should be required to have appropriate training. But, even physicians have varying levels of education based on specialty. You want to be a surgeon? Be prepared for a much longer road to get there. Any nurse who has spent any amount of time in direct patient care knows that education combined with experience is what creates a good nurse. Remove either one of those factors and the quality of nursing care will suffer. These new "rules" forcing more experienced, less educated, nurses out the door is leaving a generation of nurses without the support and experience of seasoned nurses to help them gain the experience needed to make their education more than just a piece of paper. This study should be a starting point for discussion and further study, not a reason for sweeping changes in the way we educate and employ nurses. you tout your belief that nurses must be BSN prared on one study, that shows outcomes might improve. It's not a smoking gun you point it out to be. Do I think education helps advance professional appearance? Sure, it looks good, but looks aren't everything. It looks terrible that the profession of nursing is beginning to force out experienced dedicated nurses because they don't have the right degree.

I am glad to hear you aren't here to make friends, that's a moot point. I actually agree with some of your points. But for every point I agree with I find your judgemental, holier than thou delivery distasteful. Want people to understand that education matters? Try not calling them lazy and selfish.

Lastly, your education snobbishness shines through in your last sentence.

"For the record, the online ADN-BSN diploma mills are simply exploiting the data and market, and they need to be abolished."

I never said which school I enrolled in. You assume because it is affordable and geared twords adult learners it must be a paper mill. It's not expensive enough or long enough to qualify as a real education to you? Education is only valid if it is Ivy League and unaffordable? So, let's make sure all nurses get a BSN, it's the right thing to do. But wait, that BSN must come from a school that what? What are your criteria? Because this affordable option is accredited, well respected, and highly ranked. But you go right ahead and look down your nose at me, and so many other nurses like me. You implore nurses to do what's "right" for the profession of nursing, then poo poo our efforts as not good enough?

[BostonFNP, APRN]

you have absolutly made my point. I never said I felt lazy or selfish. I said you indicated nurses like me are lazy or selfish. You response makes that pretty clear.

Again, point out where I said anyone was lazy. You may feel that I indicated you were lazy or selfish because you refuse to put your profession before your personal/family motives but that's not what I said, that is what you seem to feel in response to my post.

I am not judging anyone, everyone has their own priorities, and family is a far more important priority than a job. This discussion isn't about individuals; the discussion is about the profession as a whole. When looking at the macro level those individual priorities and motives are not the primary concern of the profession. The primary concern should be patient outcomes and, secondarily, maintaining good working conditions and fair wages. Please don't take comments personally like they are directed at you because they are not. They are directed as the profession as a whole.

Of course all physicians, female or not, should be required to have appropriate training. But, even physicians have varying levels of education based on specialty. You want to be a surgeon? Be prepared for a much longer road to get there.

Remember, a surgeon gets the same education as a GP. It's the training (residency/fellowship) that is longer for a surgeon.

Any nurse who has spent any amount of time in direct patient care knows that education combined with experience is what creates a good nurse. Remove either one of those factors and the quality of nursing care will suffer. These new "rules" forcing more experienced, less educated, nurses out the door is leaving a generation of nurses without the support and experience of seasoned nurses to help them gain the experience needed to make their education more than just a piece of paper. This study should be a starting point for discussion and further study, not a reason for sweeping changes in the way we educate and employ nurses. you tout your belief that nurses must be BSN prared on one study, that shows outcomes might improve. It's not a smoking gun you point it out to be. Do I think education helps advance professional appearance? Sure, it looks good, but looks aren't everything. It looks terrible that the profession of nursing is beginning to force out experienced dedicated nurses because they don't have the right degree.

Actually, you and I agree here in some respects but there are also two issues that you are putting into one issue.

Absolutely experience is an important factor, that's been proven time and time again. It seems you also believe education is important, and while others in this thread disagree, I think there is enough evidence to conclude that as well. It is my belief, based on the extant data, that increasing the education of nurses can improve patient outcomes independent of experience.

Hospitals firing experienced D/ADN nurses that don't get a BSN has little to do with patient outcomes, I think we all know that. If it did, it would have been done years ago. The majority is based on the hospitals cutting a chunk of their biggest expense. If hospitals were truly interested in the best outcomes they would be paying for their experience D/ADN nurses to complete their BSN (education + experience). The truth is that many of these experienced nurses are at the top of the pay scale and replacing them with lower-paid nurses is a financial improvement. Now because the market is oversaturated, these hospitals can require the less-experienced replacements to have BSNs so they get the best experience + education from their less-experienced replacements.

I am glad to hear you aren't here to make friends, that's a moot point. I actually agree with some of your points. But for every point I agree with I find your judgemental, holier than thou delivery distasteful. Want people to understand that education matters? Try not calling them lazy and selfish.

You can personally attack me if it makes you feel better but it really doesn't contribute much to the topic on hand and actually detracts from meaningful discussion. And again, quote me calling someone lazy or selfish.

Lastly, your education snobbishness shines through in your last sentence.

"For the record, the online ADN-BSN diploma mills are simply exploiting the data and market, and they need to be abolished."

I never said which school I enrolled in. You assume because it is affordable and geared twords adult learners it must be a paper mill. It's not expensive enough or long enough to qualify as a real education to you? Education is only valid if it is Ivy League and unaffordable? So, let's make sure all nurses get a BSN, it's the right thing to do. But wait, that BSN must come from a school that what? What are your criteria? Because this affordable option is accredited, well respected, and highly ranked. But you go right ahead and look down your nose at me, and so many other nurses like me. You implore nurses to do what's "right" for the profession of nursing, then poo poo our efforts as not good enough?

I wasn't making that comment directed at your education. I have no idea what program you are in (or even that you were in a program). Again you seem to take every comment I make like it is directed at you personally.

What I was saying is that I agree with a lot of the people here that there are clearly sub-par programs that are exploiting the current job market to make a quick buck and likely will contribute very little to patient outcomes. As a profession we should try to get these programs to go away.