ADN's being pushed out

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

Published

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired. The excuses for firing are ridiculous. I have sadly seen some excellent nurses lose their jobs. I am wondering if they want to get rid of the ADNs so they can look "better" with an all BSN staff. Or perhaps they want rid of older nurses who have been there longer because they are higher on the pay scale. Either way, it is very scarey. I myself am BSN, and i am not ashamed to say that what I know does not hold a candle to these fired nurses. Any thoughts?

The "quote" function should be pretty straightforward to use and it does eliminate a significant amount of confusion.

If you are complaining a "report" why don't you share some of your data? So far you have voiced your biased opinion and spouted conspiracy theory but have not provided a shred of evidence to support your position and you cite quotes from a myriad of people you are unable to name, including some "testaments" from "doctors" now. I am willing to wager you also have an excuse for not sharing these as well.

You do a lot of "telling" but very little convincing. To state you are going to spread the "truth": what is the evidence of that "truth"?

If you really want to be an advocate, take some research courses, design a study, get a grant, run it and publish it. That's how change is made in science.

People are afraid of losing their jobs in this economy. I can't use their names for the same reasons you and everyone else on this site maintains anonymity. For over a year now, I've asked you to provide me with a study done by a person or organization that has nothing to gain from an influx of students into the traditional and online programs. To this day, you still site the same so-called studies from the same bunch of venal, prevaricating people. The online programs are a whole other scam which I'll talk about another time. With none of the overhead of a traditional school, the profit margins are through the roof. And many are no less expensive than traditional schools.

Universities have people on the payrolls specifically to fabricate so-called evidence that will benefit them in the long-run. And they have a large amount of funding to do this with. And I also know they have people monitor sites like this. The people producing these studies are about as honest as this current administration was with the Affordable Care Act. That's why these elitists couldn't get BSN legislation passed. This country has enough garbage to deal with right now without a bunch of nurses who haven't picked up a syringe in over ten years trying to secure their retirement by getting nurses to dump more money into the university and lending institutions.

Nurses, once again don't take my word for it; unlike what Aiken, Ballard, Benner and all their supporters want you to do. These people don't care about you, they only care about making a name for themselves. Research it for yourself and follow the money trail. And stop supporting the ANA and you state's nurse's association until they start supporting nurses of all educational backgrounds.

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All kidding aside, I'm beginning to think your tinfoil hat might be a little too tight.

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Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.
I don't know if it's about money or politics - all I do know it that I have my ADN and I can't get a job in the hospital where I have worked for the last decade because I don't have a BSN. What is even worse it that I can't stay in my tech position much longer with a nursing license because of some "outside my scope" nursing practice crap; so unless I finish my online BSN classes about nursing theory and other baloney, I won't have job at all. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there but I have a few thoughts for anyone considering a BSN over an ADN:

1. ADN degrees are harder, no question and I don't care where you went for your bachelors. In my opinion, this is because ADN programs only care about the pass rate. This means that if you don't test well, don't even try for an ADN because you will be miserable. The program I just finished started with 88 students an ended with 35. I have no idea why attrition is not calculated in the pass rate analysis because I was all excited about my school's 98% until I realized they are just weeding out the bad test takers. I felt like I was in a shark tank. I have a friend at work that is an educator for a highly respected BSN program and said their tests were not nearly as difficult as mine. I also don't think testing well or not testing well has anything to do with being a good nurse. I know plenty of great BSN and ADN nurses.

2. No one is hiring a new grad ADN. Period. At least not on the east coast. I might be able to beg my way into a terribly managed rehab with a lot of turnover but then I risk losing my license and my hair, cuticles, sleep, and husband probably too.

3. All that waiting for a clinical seat in the ADN program is a waste. Why can't I get an early start taking NUR classes for the RN-BSN program with the local college that already has an articulation agreement with my school? I have to have a license, you say? Why? None of the BSN programs need their license before they take all their nursing theory classes. In fact, the closet university/BSN doesn't even start clinical until the final year. It's stupid. And what is even more ridiculous about any ADN program is that if you want to change to another program you have to start all over because almost nothing transfers. Which brings me to the benefits of the LPN…..

4. If you are set on the ADN or you don't have the opportunity/grades for the straight BSN, the other option is an LPN program. Generally speaking, LPNs are not getting hired either but that is not the point - most LPN programs are easier to get into and once you have the license, there are a lot of LPN-RN programs at the local community colleges. Spots for the 2nd year open up due to attrition and LPNs can often slide right in without much competition. What's more, you never have to make up that first year again. whew.

5. If you have any down time (and I know there is a lot of waiting) take as many of the BSN required classes you can take (this is often easy to know if your school has an articulation agreement) so that you only have like 10-12 NURS classes (often online) to take after you finish boards. Definitely don't stop going! If you already work at a hospital - you know, the magnet ones that only hire BSNs (and don't get me started on that magnet baloney) - you might be able get into a residency by getting your manager to endorse you if you are currently pursuing your BSN and only have a short way to go. The nursing residency program at my hospital was very competitive (I heard that like 400-500 people applied for only 30 spots). I also probably didn't call in as many favors as I should have to get a spot….oh well, I guess there is always next year ….. I really feel strongly that the 6 months of the on-the-job-training you get in critical care areas in these nursing residency programs prepares you best for being in the drivers seat after you are through. It would probably be smart if an ADN program partnered up with a hospital to provide this type of training. Hospitals might like not having to pay for 6mnths of training and prefer to higher the "already trained" nurses instead. (Of course, with a contract that they had to get the BSN within 3 years haha….) Ok, so I'm reaching a bit but I bet the typical ADN program will be completely irrelevant by 2020. Just my opinion…..

6. There are a TON of scholarships, grants, or funding floating around that no one knows about. I've hardly had to pay any tuition out of pocket. My hospital picks up half and the rest is paid for in grants and scholarship, and not loans.

7. If your local hospital has them, get a safety sitter job. It's a great way to really get to know a patient and it also helps get your foot in the door at the hospital where you want to work. And if your patient is sleeping or not too demanding you can get a lot of studying done too.

8. For what it's worth, PA programs used to be associate and bachelor degreed but changed to exclusively graduate/master - I wonder how the AS/BS PAs felt during the transition?

9. And, yes, I get that the nursing schools have to be hard because we have people's lives in our hands, but I don't think making it this difficult is assuring quality of nursing - it's just making it more aggravating. I felt a little duped by the ADN program.I probably should have just tried the BSN program at the nearest university - I just thought I would get done faster and start working sooner with the ADN because it was a "2 year degree" which is also baloney. It takes at least a year for all the pre-reqs and then you have to apply and wait for a seat which makes the "2-year degree" take more like 3-4 years which is almost as much as the BSN.

I have friends that have just as many complaints about their BSN programs but I just feel that they are better off when they graduate.

ok, just my opinions. If I write anymore I will have to put it into APA format. Let me know if you think I'm way off.

I'm not sure your experience mirrors that of many ADN students, myself included. And why on earth would your hospital pay half the tuition for you to go to an ADN school and then not give you a nurse job?

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What I meant that universities have people who are paid to do research and come up with conclusions to support a certain point of view. I know it for a fact as I've spoke to people in the university systems. Why is that so hard to understand. I really don't care how many from academia write on this site. I'm going to do what I feel is right and I've found a lot of people agree. We'll see what happens when the general public gets the truth.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I can't use their names for the same reasons you and everyone else on this site maintains anonymity.

For over a year now, I've asked you to provide me with a study done by a person or organization that has nothing to gain from an influx of students into the traditional and online programs.

Universities have people on the payrolls specifically to fabricate so-called evidence that will benefit them in the long-run. And they have a large amount of funding to do this with. And I also know they have people monitor sites like this.

Nurses, once again don't take my word for it.

You can't use their names? Member of the media, members of the government, and doctors that you state you have testaments/official statements from, shouldn't have any problems with their names being shared if indeed your "report" has any base in fact.

There are more than a dozen well power peer-reviewed national and international studies that are all consistent. The burden of proof is squarely on you if you oppose these studies for whatever conspiracy theory you can fabricate to try and discredit them. I would be happy to cite and discuss any of these studies as I would absolutely love to hear your critical review of the study proving the results are biased. Which should we start with? The 2003 study you like to slander: list for us the flaws you see in the methods and data where bias is evident.

All the public universities have faculty salaries that are published and considered public knowledge: please show which faculty members are patrolled for the purpose of fabricating data. You are deluded if you truly believe this, especially that they are monitoring nursing forums.

Don't take your word for it? I don't think many will, and your word is all you have as there is nothing more to your argument.

I would suspect most advocates for ADN education would cringe to see you interviewed in any type of media spouting conspiracy theory and without any base in data or fact.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
What I meant that universities have people who are paid to do research and come up with conclusions to support a certain point of view. I know it for a fact as I've spoke to people in the university systems.

What people, what universities?

Speaking of fabricating...

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What people, what universities?

Speaking of fabricating...

If I give up the name of the news person and station I talked too, then I'd be giving my identity away: which I get the idea is what you want. When you start giving up some of your details on this site, then I may also. When the story gets in the mainstream media (and I won't stop trying until it does), then all will know who I am.

As a side note, if these people driving the BSN thought they were so right, why did they spend so much time and money on lobbyists and summits to try to push their agenda. As I stated before, I've spoken with PTs, OTs and Pharmacists and was told that the degree elevation in those fields did nothing to elevate the professions and served only to elevate the amount of debt the students accrued as well as the amount of revenue taken in by the institutions.

And nurses, especially those 40 and over; be very careful about going into more debt for higher nursing degrees. The projected nursing shortage was a sham pushed by the many of the same people who are pushing the BSN agenda. The projected loss of healthcare jobs is approx. 800,000 by the year 2020. Consolidation of healthcare facilities and doing more with less will be the norm. It's already started in my area. A major university hospital just laid off a bunch of NPs while another downsized and laid off many healthcare personnel across the board. The reason: declining reimbursements to providers.

But once again, don't take my word, research it for yourselves.

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
The projected loss of healthcare jobs is approx. 800,000 by the year 2020. Consolidation of healthcare facilities and doing more with less will be the norm. It's already started in my area. A major university hospital just laid off a bunch of NPs while another downsized and laid off many healthcare personnel across the board. The reason: declining reimbursements to providers.

But once again, don't take my word, research it for yourselves.

avengingspirit, from your posts, you are in my area, FYI, the consolidation has been occurring for over 20 years now; the same issue was declining reimburse send back then; it is the same thing now; somehow, nurses survived despite the glut of experienced and new grads...although things are more sluggish now, nursing has ALWAYS been in the community; If ADN nurses are being pushed out, there is a community out there that needs them in home health and private duty; a specialization IMHO that needs MORE experienced nurses to help with complex pts living at home and in the community...thinking ahead of the curve has always kept me keeping a job and marketable for ANY job in this market. yes:

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avengingspirit, from your posts, you are in my area, FYI, the consolidation has been occurring for over 20 years now; the same issue was declining reimburse send back then; it is the same thing now; somehow, nurses survived despite the glut of experienced and new grads...although things are more sluggish now, nursing has ALWAYS been in the community; If ADN nurses are being pushed out, there is a community out there that needs them in home health and private duty; a specialization IMHO that needs MORE experienced nurses to help with complex pts living at home and in the community...thinking ahead of the curve has always kept me keeping a job and marketable for ANY job in this market. yes:

I understand but I've been told by managers at a couple of major healthcare systems in my area that the consolidations are expected to increase exponentially as a result of declining reimbursements due to the Affordable Care Act.

P.S. If you're in my area, is there any way I can communicate with you via email outside of this forum. I would like to get the perspective from another nurse here in this area. However, I don't want to post my email address and reveal my identity on an open forum.

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There are more than a dozen well power peer-reviewed national and international studies that are all consistent. The burden of proof is squarely on you if you oppose these studies for whatever conspiracy theory you can fabricate to try and discredit them. I would be happy to cite and discuss any of these studies as I would absolutely love to hear your critical review of the study proving the results are biased. Which should we start with? The 2003 study you like to slander: list for us the flaws you see in the methods and data where bias is evident.

Not accepting a study's methodology and/or conclusions due to standards of research and/or statistical procedures, does not equate to believing in a conspiracy theory, as many people have good or excellent knowledge of research procedures and statistical procedures. Also, not everyone who refutes a study, with good reasons, will feel a need to debate with you.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Float Pool Nursing.
Explain to me how more education (4 years vs 2) does NOT make you a better nurse?? How, exactly is an ADN better prepared than a BSN? That is nonsense. And guess who else thinks so?? Magnet and most other hospitals, pharma and research companies, universities, etc. If you are fine with an ADN that's great, but don't try to belittle those whose took the incentive for a more well-rounded education. Or in my case, a MSN.

I have a bachelors degree in an unrelated field. I got my associate degree in nursing then over the course of a couple years completed my BSN while working. The coursework in my BSN program did very little/nothing to make me better at nursing.

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You can't use their names? Member of the media, members of the government, and doctors that you state you have testaments/official statements from, shouldn't have any problems with their names being shared if indeed your "report" has any base in fact.

There are more than a dozen well power peer-reviewed national and international studies that are all consistent. The burden of proof is squarely on you if you oppose these studies for whatever conspiracy theory you can fabricate to try and discredit them. I would be happy to cite and discuss any of these studies as I would absolutely love to hear your critical review of the study proving the results are biased. Which should we start with? The 2003 study you like to slander: list for us the flaws you see in the methods and data where bias is evident.

All the public universities have faculty salaries that are published and considered public knowledge: please show which faculty members are patrolled for the purpose of fabricating data. You are deluded if you truly believe this, especially that they are monitoring nursing forums.

Don't take your word for it? I don't think many will, and your word is all you have as there is nothing more to your argument.

I would suspect most advocates for ADN education would cringe to see you interviewed in any type of media spouting conspiracy theory and without any base in data or fact.

If you really believe that people working for academia are not posting on this site and that nursing policy should be changed based on one study that was proven to be flawed (I posted that information in a response to you months ago) then you also still must believe the "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan" promise.

I'd like to get in touch with you so I can sell you some real estate on the moon. There's a peer-reviewed study out there that provides evidence-based research on why now is the time to buy at Lunar Estates.

A few years back, a friend of mine who worked as a private detective and went to med school was trying to explain to me the concept of an educated idiot. I never quite understood the concept until in the late 90s when I had to deal with some at a major university. And now after researching the BSN and Magnet Status pushes and the people who initiated and are perpetuating them, I have a better than ever understanding.

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