ADN's being pushed out

avengingspirit1 · Apr 30, 2014

Which hospital/school in Philadelphia? Please cite some evidence for this statement.

You should know that for legal reasons, I can't mention the names of people or the facilities.

allnurses Guide · Apr 30, 2014

You should know that for legal reasons, I can't mention the names of people or the facilities.

So again, this is hearsay? There hasn't been any media coverage of it?

avengingspirit1 · May 1, 2014

So again, this is hearsay? There hasn't been any media coverage of it?

By your "logic" then all of what you wrote can be considered hearsay. Sorry to break it to you, much goes on that is not covered in the media or needs a million dollar funded research to be true. It's thing called common sense, something that can't be learned at a university but must be born with.

avengingspirit1 · May 1, 2014

So again, this is hearsay? There hasn't been any media coverage of it?

Addendum: Yes, I may hit the c key instead of the a key once in a while. I don't claim to be the best typist. But:

Fact: Every individual driving the BSN push is in some way affiliated with a university.

Fact: Hospitals receive a very large government stipend for attaining (paying for) magnet status.

Fact: They hire BSNs to help attain magnet status and to try to market that in some way it makes for superior patient care.

Fact: I previously sent you the websites that offered critiques of the Aiken study. You denounced them because they didn't fit with your stream of thought.

The university system that was paying employers to hire their graduates is the same one he in Phila. that just downsized and let a bunch of healthcare workers go. The information about them paying employers was given to me in confidence by a teacher close to the system. I promised not to mention their name as their career would be at stake.

The state representative who said they will never approve a BSN mandate, his wife has been a nurse for 30 years and said quite plainly that it will not facilitate better patient care. Our representatives have more important things to do than cater to a bunch of out of narrow-minded, middle-aged women who want to ensure their cushy, never-having-to-produce, fantasy-land university jobs until they retire.

imenid37 · May 1, 2014

Ooops I didn't "reply" correctly. Nothing wrong with being an APRN, but at the end of the day we will always need bedside nurses. As new bedside nurses come on scene, there need to be experienced nurses to mentor them. There is nothing wrong with making a career in that role. Many do not want to linger too long there as they prefer to move on to roles which take them away from the bedside, bring better work hours, pay, and prestige. We need to realize that pursuing excellence in nursing should not be an opportunity only for those "stars" who move on to NP roles or become administrators. If we value our patients and the quality of care we must cultivate smart and motivated individuals who also stay at the bedside. There should be next career steps that allow and even encourage folks to stay at the bedside.

IF we take ADN off the table as a step in the career path, I fear that we may take opportunity away from many talented individuals. The cost of higher education is skyrocketing. Many excellent students are looking at the community colleges for their education. As I am sure you know some ADN's go on to earn higher degrees. One stares at me in the mirror everyday. I never forget where I came from and the value of that experience. I really do worry that some excellent would be nurses may not pursue a nursing career because they don't have the time or money to invest in a pursuing a BSN as an initial degree. I do not dispute the value of a BSN, nor do I discount the value of an ADN.

avengingspirit1 · May 12, 2014

I am a new graduate of an ADN program and will be pursuing my BSN this fall because I keep being told that eventually we will be told we will have to have it by 2020. I recently got a job and asked my employer about tution reimbursement and pay differential for BSN. I was shocked to find out from HR there is NO tution help and absolutely NO differential in pay. I am really taken back by this since they are pushing for their nurses to become a BSN, which I might add, not ONE nurse in this hospital is a BSN. I will probably be the first one even over my Nurse Manager who is "working" on it. UGH

Hi sjpns12

The push to have nurses run back to school is purely money driven and is being perpetuated solely by those people and institutions who will see their revenue increase by having nurses like you run back to school. They keep trumpeting the flawed 2003 JAMA report that nurses with BSNs provide better care. The Univ. of PA authors of the study were given a ton of money to basically write an infomercial that would persuade hospitals to hire only BSNs and force nurses to have to run back to school. It never went as planned as the majority of physicians and patients never cared about the initials after a nurse's name; only that they were competent and provided care to the patient's satisfaction. This is why every 2-3 years they try to publish a booster-shot study to try to keep the student dollars coming in. Don't worry, they will never be able to take away our nursing licenses. If they try, there is already a talk of class-action lawsuit. Pharmacists, PTs, OTs all have told me the higher degree push in their fields did nothing to elevate the professions and only elevated the bottom line of the organizations that profited from keeping students in school longer. Besides, the plummeting patient satisfaction scores resulting from hospitals hiring nurses based solely on the initials after their names and not what they bring to the table is starting to make the news. The people driving the BSN push are some of the most venal, prevaricating people you will ever not want to meet. And now their being called out for what they are.

avengingspirit1 · May 22, 2014

]I agree that having a BSN does not magically make you suddenly better. I do think it makes you better over time. I do not think that ADNs choosing not to go back to school are inferior in any way. If an ADN recognizes that he/she would be a better nurse by getting a BSN and chooses not to do so because it is inconvenient, then yes, there is some selfishness there (in my opinion)
And in one of your other posts, when someone said that by your logic, someone with a nursing doctorate would make the best nurse, you responded by saying that education does make make one a better nurse. You seem to flip-flop a lot as if you're caught up in not trying to tick off the nurses you precept while not trying to tick off the university that's probably in some way going to fund your doctorate in nursing or psychology whichever it is. I'm sticking to my guns in saying that a BSN does not make anyone a better nurse and not having one does not make anyone any less of a nurse. These on-line RN-BSN programs that are cropping up all over the place are mostly a money-making racket. With no classroom overhead, the profit margin must be at least 500% with these schemes. And courses such as Sociology of Nursing and Multicultural Aspects of Nursing which seem to be at the core of these programs have virtually no applicable intellectual content and serve no purpose but to pad the tuition bill.
And by the way nurses, the author of the 2003 study on how more BSN nurses in hospitals equals lower mortality rates did not return the phone calls from the news network reporter. As I've said before, these people are legends in their own minds and are only in control when they're in their protected academia bubble.

avengingspirit1 · May 23, 2014

Sorry for the typo people. Sometimes I write these posts late at night. This is the way it was supposed to read:

]I agree that having a BSN does not magically make you suddenly better. I do think it makes you better over time. I do not think that ADNs choosing not to go back to school are inferior in any way. If an ADN recognizes that he/she would be a better nurse by getting a BSN and chooses not to do so because it is inconvenient, then yes, there is some selfishness there (in my opinion)
And in one of your other posts, when someone said that by your logic, someone with a nursing doctorate would make the best nurse, you responded by saying that more education does not automatically make one a better nurse. So which is it. You seem to flip-flop a lot as if you're caught up in not trying to tick off the nurses you precept while not trying to tick off the university that's probably in some way going to fund your doctorate in nursing or psychology whichever it is. I'm sticking to my guns in saying that a BSN does not make anyone a better nurse and not having one does not make anyone any less of a nurse. These on-line RN-BSN programs that are cropping up all over the place are mostly a money-making racket. With no classroom overhead, the profit margin must be at least 500% with these schemes. And courses such as Sociology of Nursing and Multicultural Aspects of Nursing which seem to be at the core of these programs have virtually no applicable intellectual content and serve no purpose but to pad the tuition bill.
And by the way nurses, the author of the 2003 study on how more BSN nurses in hospitals equals lower mortality rates did not return the phone calls from the news network reporter. As I've said before, these people are legends in their own minds and are only in control when they're in their protected academia bubble.

Shodylocy · May 23, 2014

I don't know if it's about money or politics - all I do know it that I have my ADN and I can't get a job in the hospital where I have worked for the last decade because I don't have a BSN. What is even worse it that I can't stay in my tech position much longer with a nursing license because of some "outside my scope" nursing practice crap; so unless I finish my online BSN classes about nursing theory and other baloney, I won't have job at all. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there but I have a few thoughts for anyone considering a BSN over an ADN:

1. ADN degrees are harder, no question and I don't care where you went for your bachelors. In my opinion, this is because ADN programs only care about the pass rate. This means that if you don't test well, don't even try for an ADN because you will be miserable. The program I just finished started with 88 students an ended with 35. I have no idea why attrition is not calculated in the pass rate analysis because I was all excited about my school's 98% until I realized they are just weeding out the bad test takers. I felt like I was in a shark tank. I have a friend at work that is an educator for a highly respected BSN program and said their tests were not nearly as difficult as mine. I also don't think testing well or not testing well has anything to do with being a good nurse. I know plenty of great BSN and ADN nurses.

2. No one is hiring a new grad ADN. Period. At least not on the east coast. I might be able to beg my way into a terribly managed rehab with a lot of turnover but then I risk losing my license and my hair, cuticles, sleep, and husband probably too.

3. All that waiting for a clinical seat in the ADN program is a waste. Why can't I get an early start taking NUR classes for the RN-BSN program with the local college that already has an articulation agreement with my school? I have to have a license, you say? Why? None of the BSN programs need their license before they take all their nursing theory classes. In fact, the closet university/BSN doesn't even start clinical until the final year. It's stupid. And what is even more ridiculous about any ADN program is that if you want to change to another program you have to start all over because almost nothing transfers. Which brings me to the benefits of the LPN…..

4. If you are set on the ADN or you don't have the opportunity/grades for the straight BSN, the other option is an LPN program. Generally speaking, LPNs are not getting hired either but that is not the point - most LPN programs are easier to get into and once you have the license, there are a lot of LPN-RN programs at the local community colleges. Spots for the 2nd year open up due to attrition and LPNs can often slide right in without much competition. What's more, you never have to make up that first year again. whew.

5. If you have any down time (and I know there is a lot of waiting) take as many of the BSN required classes you can take (this is often easy to know if your school has an articulation agreement) so that you only have like 10-12 NURS classes (often online) to take after you finish boards. Definitely don't stop going! If you already work at a hospital - you know, the magnet ones that only hire BSNs (and don't get me started on that magnet baloney) - you might be able get into a residency by getting your manager to endorse you if you are currently pursuing your BSN and only have a short way to go. The nursing residency program at my hospital was very competitive (I heard that like 400-500 people applied for only 30 spots). I also probably didn't call in as many favors as I should have to get a spot….oh well, I guess there is always next year ….. I really feel strongly that the 6 months of the on-the-job-training you get in critical care areas in these nursing residency programs prepares you best for being in the drivers seat after you are through. It would probably be smart if an ADN program partnered up with a hospital to provide this type of training. Hospitals might like not having to pay for 6mnths of training and prefer to higher the "already trained" nurses instead. (Of course, with a contract that they had to get the BSN within 3 years haha….) Ok, so I'm reaching a bit but I bet the typical ADN program will be completely irrelevant by 2020. Just my opinion…..

6. There are a TON of scholarships, grants, or funding floating around that no one knows about. I've hardly had to pay any tuition out of pocket. My hospital picks up half and the rest is paid for in grants and scholarship, and not loans.

7. If your local hospital has them, get a safety sitter job. It's a great way to really get to know a patient and it also helps get your foot in the door at the hospital where you want to work. And if your patient is sleeping or not too demanding you can get a lot of studying done too.

8. For what it's worth, PA programs used to be associate and bachelor degreed but changed to exclusively graduate/master - I wonder how the AS/BS PAs felt during the transition?

9. And, yes, I get that the nursing schools have to be hard because we have people's lives in our hands, but I don't think making it this difficult is assuring quality of nursing - it's just making it more aggravating. I felt a little duped by the ADN program.I probably should have just tried the BSN program at the nearest university - I just thought I would get done faster and start working sooner with the ADN because it was a "2 year degree" which is also baloney. It takes at least a year for all the pre-reqs and then you have to apply and wait for a seat which makes the "2-year degree" take more like 3-4 years which is almost as much as the BSN.

I have friends that have just as many complaints about their BSN programs but I just feel that they are better off when they graduate.

ok, just my opinions. If I write anymore I will have to put it into APA format. Let me know if you think I'm way off.

allnurses Guide · May 23, 2014

I do think it makes you better over time.
If an ADN recognizes that he/she would be a better nurse by getting a BSN and chooses not to do so because it is inconvenient, then yes, there is some selfishness there (in my opinion).
And in one of your other posts, when someone said that by your logic, someone with a nursing doctorate would make the best nurse, you responded by saying that more education does not automatically make one a better nurse.
So which is it. You seem to flip-flop a lot as if you're caught up in not trying to tick off the nurses you precept while not trying to tick off the university that's probably in some way going to fund your doctorate in nursing or psychology whichever it is.
I'm sticking to my guns in saying that a BSN does not make anyone a better nurse and not having one does not make anyone any less of a nurse.
And by the way nurses, the author of the 2003 study on how more BSN nurses in hospitals equals lower mortality rates did not return the phone calls from the news network reporter.

Ok we agree that increasing education makes an individual nurse better over time.

We agree that for some individuals there is some selfishness at play.

I have said two things about the extrapolation that doctorate-prepared nurses would provide better outcomes than ADN or BSN or MSN nurses: 1. That we don't have any data that supports it because those studies have not been done and 2. No level of education "automatically" makes an individual better but I would wager (based on studies we do have) that in aggregate there is a net benefit to masters or doctorate degrees, the same as there is to a bachelor degree based on the studies that have been done.

There is no flip-flopping for me unless new research provides data to suggests there should be a change in position, and in which case, I would change my view. (As an aside, I have absolutely no concerns about angering any of my preceptees not am I pushing any sort of academic agenda.)

Speak of flip-flopping, you state that "[bSN] makes you a better one [nurse] over time" then state a paragraph later that "a BSN doesn't make anyone a better nurse". Which is it?

Please tell us, which reporter was attempting to contact Linda Aiken? Perhaps we can get them in touch, especially given that since 2003 there have been four similar studies that have all produced consistent results, and I am sure she would like to talk about it.

And which

avengingspirit1 · May 24, 2014

I have said two things about the extrapolation that doctorate-prepared nurses would provide better outcomes than ADN or BSN or MSN nurses: 1. That we don't have any data that supports it because those studies have not been done and 2. No level of education "automatically" makes an individual better but I would wager (based on studies we do have) that in aggregate there is a net benefit to masters or doctorate degrees, the same as there is to a bachelor degree based on the studies that have been done.
There is no flip-flopping for me unless new research provides data to suggests there should be a change in position, and in which case, I would change my view. (As an aside, I have absolutely no concerns about angering any of my preceptees not am I pushing any sort of academic agenda.)
Speak of flip-flopping, you state that "[bSN] makes you a better one [nurse] over time" then state a paragraph later that "a BSN doesn't make anyone a better nurse". Which is it?
Please tell us, which reporter was attempting to contact Linda Aiken? Perhaps we can get them in touch, especially given that since 2003 there have been four similar studies that have all produced consistent results, and I am sure she would like to talk about it.
I was quoting you. You are the one who said a BSN makes one a better nurse over time. I re-posted and corrected my typo above. The studies you refer are nothing more than spin-offs of Aiken's first study in 2003. They are backed and funded by the very same organizations that backed her first study who are all committed to the BSN being the entry into the nursing profession; the AACN, ANCC, ANA and IOM just to name a few. At least one of them was done again by Aiken herself. My favorite was the one she put out last March where she cites her previous work as a reference in the first four out of six footnotes. Some real unbiased scholarly research we have here!
Incidentally nurses, the AACN has a powerful political agenda going. They are trying to eliminate nursing competition through the accreditation process by striving to make it so diploma and associate program grads can't sit for licensing exams. Talk about a bunch of scumbags. I told you before their goal is to eliminate the lower cost options so nursing students will have no choice but to have to attend higher priced university programs. Of course these are the schools they will accredit and collect fees for the process.
I am composing a report that I wish to send to the local as well as national media and will not stop until people hear the truth. The nursing academic couldn't get legislation passed so they are now trying to come in the back door by lying to healthcare facilities that BSN nurses are better and result in fewer deaths. We have testaments from doctors who say this is garbage.

allnurses Guide · May 24, 2014

I was quoting you. You are the one who said a BSN makes one a better nurse over time. I re-posted and corrected my typo above.
The studies you refer are nothing more than spin-offs of Aiken's first study in 2003. They are backed and funded by the very same organizations that backed her first study who are all committed to the BSN being the entry into the nursing profession; the AACN, ANCC, ANA and IOM just to name a few. At least one of them was done again by Aiken herself. My favorite was the one she put out last March where she cites her previous work as a reference in the first four out of six footnotes. Some real unbiased scholarly research we have here!
Incidentally nurses, the AACN has a powerful political agenda going. They are trying to eliminate nursing competition through the accreditation process by striving to make it so diploma and associate program grads can't sit for licensing exams. Talk about a bunch of scumbags. I told you before their goal is to eliminate the lower cost options so nursing students will have no choice but to have to attend higher priced university programs. Of course these are the schools they will accredit and collect fees for the process.
I am composing a report that I wish to send to the local as well as national media and will not stop until people hear the truth. The nursing academic couldn't get legislation passed so they are now trying to come in the back door by lying to healthcare facilities that BSN nurses are better and result in fewer deaths. We have testaments from doctors who say this is garbage.

The "quote" function should be pretty straightforward to use and it does eliminate a significant amount of confusion.

If you are complaining a "report" why don't you share some of your data? So far you have voiced your biased opinion and spouted conspiracy theory but have not provided a shred of evidence to support your position and you cite quotes from a myriad of people you are unable to name, including some "testaments" from "doctors" now. I am willing to wager you also have an excuse for not sharing these as well.

You do a lot of "telling" but very little convincing. To state you are going to spread the "truth": what is the evidence of that "truth"?

If you really want to be an advocate, take some research courses, design a study, get a grant, run it and publish it. That's how change is made in science.